[ SECRET POST #340 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #340 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Posting for Shahni! And early because I've got pseuicide class.

Secrets Left to Post: 06 pages, 150 secrets from Secret Submission Post #049.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 4 ] broken links, [ 1 2] not!secrets, 0 not!fandom.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Wednesday, December 12th, 2007.
Current Secret Submission Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

27: A theory on all the recent yaoi posts

[(Anonymous)]

1) There seem to be many comments in response to 27 saying "If you don't like it, don't read it".

The people who posted said comments seem to me to be assuming that the OP is referring only to fic when they say yaoi is eating fandom alive. But just look at tonight's secret post.

I counted 18 secrets, at least, that deal with or mention ships of any sort. Of those 18, 12 are clearly homosexual in nature and 3 are clearly het (of the remaining, 2 were "maybes", as in maybe referring to a ship or maybe a friendship, and 1 was incest but didn't specify the gender of those in the pairing). So, in this secret post alone, the homosexual pairings (slash, yaoi, and yuri) outnumber the het posts 4 to 1. And, just for the sake of argument let's assume that those 2 "maybes" are actually gens, they outnumber the gens 6 to 1.

So, according to the "Don't like it, don't read it" philosophy, does this mean the OP, because they don't like yaoi, should run away from Fandom!secrets never to return? Of course not, that's silly. On the flip side, should all the slash shippers stop posting yaoi secrets just because the gen and het fans are getting upset? That too is also silly. Nobody is forcing the het and gen fans to read the yaoi secrets - I'm sure most people's "scroll" button works just as well as mine.

BUT can you not see where, from the OP's POV, it might appear as though yaoi is "eating fandom"?

Personally, I think a lot of yaoi-bashing secrets have been popping up lately because both sides are digging in their heels instead of trying to see the other side. I think a lot of the "I hate yaoi" secrets are coming from het or gen fans who are feeling frustrated and just want to have their feelings acknowledged.

Yes, some of the secrets could be worded a bit better, but I think that one way to look at them is: "Look, I'm a het and/or gen fan. I realize there are a lot of yaoi/slash/yuri fans out there. Great. Whatever you like, you like. Sometimes though, it gets a little frustrating as a het and/or gen fan. I had a run in with A (as in one) batshit yaoi fan-girl once and sometimes it seems to me as though the yaoi is everywhere/I'm bashed for liking het/the internet is just for porn, even if that is not actually the case. But I need to blow off some steam from time to time. Thanks for listening."

If, instead or saying "I'm a yaoi fan and I'm not like that! Self-entitled bitch GTFO!" the yaoi/slash fans said "Hmmmm well I like what I like, and nothing is going to change that, but I can see where it might appear to you at times to be nothing but slash/all about the porn. Get it out of your system. I'm might not agree with you though" then we might have fewer yaoi-bashing posts.

Re: 27: A theory on all the recent yaoi posts

[drworm.livejournal.com]

The part that's funny is that, you know, hetero stuff is the rule in mainstream culture. So I don't feel a lot of sympathy for those who aren't big on gay dudes. I just feel bad for the lesbians.

Re: 27: A theory on all the recent yaoi posts

[kusanivy.livejournal.com]

But see? A response like that is why it can be frustrating. Het shippers in fandom, who may very well be very supportive of homosexual relations in RL, are held responsible for stuff we had nothing to do with.

So what if hetero is the norm in RL? This is fandom, not RL. We are not allowed to have grievances because our preferred type of ship happens to be popular in mainstream culture?

Re: 27: A theory on all the recent yaoi posts

[ryuutchi.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't know, but people tend to look at me oddly if I start ranting about how many heterosexual couples I see walking down the street holding hands and aren't I entitled to not have to wade through all those heterosexual girls to find a nice lesbian...

Re: 27: A theory on all the recent yaoi posts

[dorknessrising.livejournal.com]

...How would you like your internets?

Re: 27: A theory on all the recent yaoi posts

[drworm.livejournal.com]

We are not allowed to have grievances because our preferred type of ship happens to be popular in mainstream culture?

Ah, now you're catching on.

Re: 27: A theory on all the recent yaoi posts

[kleenexwoman.livejournal.com]

You may want to think about:
This is fandom, not RL.
in the context of:
our preferred type of ship happens to be popular in mainstream culture
and see what doesn't work logically in there. Just a suggestion.

Re: 27: A theory on all the recent yaoi posts

[(Anonymous)]

This is a tangent on what you two were discussing... because I'm tangenty that way. Hope ya don't mind.

One of the reasons I think there is so much slash in fandom is related directly to the fact there is so little mainstream media to fill that niche.

If I could flip on the boob tube to watch some pretty boys flirting, it would definitely be easier than trying to scour the pit for a readable fic. But, alas, it's not that abundant. So that leaves fanfic as a fun, quick fix. It's a refuge that's not readily available elsewhere.

So yeah, depending on your view, fandom can either be grossly skewed and overrun with too much slash fic...or (if on the other side) it can be seen as a refuge to find things you normally wouldn't be able to find in movies, tv, ads, billboards, magazines, etc...

We're never going to have a show with the two male leads flirting. So we fic it. Yay? :) I'm sorry if that disturbs people but I'm not sure what I can do to address that grievance.

Re: 27: A theory on all the recent yaoi posts

[ryuutchi.livejournal.com]

Actually, it looks to me like there are seven secrets dedicated to slash/yaoi (3, 4, 8, 9, 14, 24, 40), three dedicated to het (13, 31, and 32), and six that could be considered slash/yaoi if you discounted the fact that the slash wasn't the main point of the secret (19, 23, 29, 35, 41, 43).

Shipping seems to be 16 out of 43 secrets. I'd say gen came out pretty well ahead.

Re: 27: A theory on all the recent yaoi posts

[dorknessrising.livejournal.com]

Well yes, but there are these things, see, called "scroll keys" and "back buttons" that allow one who does not like yaoi to avoid it quite easily, by either backing off the page or scrolling past the unwanted content.

I used to have the exact same attitude as the OP. I eventually grew up and realized that no, fandom is not All About Me. I just skip over it if I don't like it. And if I have trouble finding what I want? Oh well. Try harder.

For the record, I'm a mostly-gen/hetficcer who goes for the occasional crackpairing slash. I still have no sympathy for "YAOI RUINZ TEH FANDOM" BS.

Re: 27: A theory on all the recent yaoi posts

[(Anonymous)]

Oh hai, that scroll thing. Would it work for secrets you don't like too, perhaps?

Why, I believe it might. Better, perhaps, than macro wank!

Re: 27: A theory on all the recent yaoi posts

[dorknessrising.livejournal.com]

Re: 27: A theory on all the recent yaoi posts

[kristenell.livejournal.com]

So much word here. I ship some pairings that nobody likes, or het in slash heavy fandoms, or even slash in het heavy fandoms, but I don't think the fact that my tastes fall out of step with most of fandom is really hurting me, and even with how much there is, it has been plenty easy to avoid.

I mean that is what search features are for, so you can find what you want, and it was not like if the slashers weren't writing slash would be a guarantee that they would write something you like.

Re: 27: A theory on all the recent yaoi posts

[dorknessrising.livejournal.com]

I crackship like nobody's business. Mostly because it winds up being either hilarious or hot, but equally entertaining. The best is when it's both. See icon for details.

Re: 27: A theory on all the recent yaoi posts

[kusanivy.livejournal.com]

Please bare with me, while I digress a moment and tell a little story.

I love Spider-Man for various reasons. I have several friends who like Batman. I am not overly fond of Batman. Most conversations I had about him until very recently went like this:

Me: I like Spider-Man.
Friends: Ha! Why? Batman's so much cooler.
Me: I like his powers. And he's funny.
Friends: Batman doesn't have powers - that makes him SO much
cooler than Spider-Man

I grew to HATE Batman. Not so much because of the character but because of the way my friends reacted to me not liking the character. They framed all their arguments in such a way as to make me feel inferior just because I didn't share their opinion.

Recently I made a new friend and a very similar discussion to the old Batman/Spider-Man debate popped up.

Me: *repeats opinions over why I like Spidey and not Bats*
New Friend: One's not better than the other, they're just different. Personally, I like Batman better but given what you told me about your preferences I can see why you like Spidey more. And I can see why you really don't like Batman if that's the reaction you got in the past.

Now, which conversation do you think I walked away from feeling better about? Which do you think actually lead to more mature discussion? Even though she disagreed with me, my new friend at least acknowledged that I could have a different opinion than her. And you know what? She's actually got me reading Batman stuff now...

Look, all the OP and the tl:dr commenter are asking for is to have their opinions acknowledged (NOT agreed with merely acknowledged) without being treated like idiots. They are not saying yaoi is evil. They are not saying they think it should stop. They are just saying they don't like it, and that they should have the right to say they don't like it without being macroed to death ro treated like fanbrats

Re: 27: A theory on all the recent yaoi posts

[(Anonymous)]

Oh man, thank you. Thank you very much.

Re: 27: A theory on all the recent yaoi posts

[(Anonymous)]

I get where you're coming from. Really. From what I'm reading, you're saying if the other side would just acknowledge your pain, then everything would settle down and you could move on.

The problem is, we each have to take personal responsibility for our own issues. Sure, it'd be nice if other people would just do "fill in the blank", but it's not something we can sit back and expect. Expectations of other people's actions just leads to disappointment. So we have to take control of our own environment. Maybe that means putting boundaries on our discussions of Batman vs Spiderman.

I know I'm sounding like Dr. Ruth here, but all we've been doing so far is picking at scabs and it's not getting us anywhere. The more people pick at scabs, the more back and forth occurs, the more heated things get, the more wording gets sloppy, the more offense gets taken, until finally someone (on whatever side) is able to say, "Aha! I knew it," and flounce off with the satisfaction that their thoughts on yaoi were finally proven correct(after enough picking at the scab).

I'd rather just quit picking.

You have all the right in the world to pick at a scab out in a public forum and say you don't like yaoi. Question is... what does it accomplish?

Re: 27: A theory on all the recent yaoi posts

[ryuutchi.livejournal.com]

Erh. I think you missed the point that people have, several times, in the comments here said "yeah, we know. It sucks."

The fact that people have said that and no one acknowledges it sort of pokes holes in your theory.

Re: 27: A theory on all the recent yaoi posts

[drworm.livejournal.com]

Way to trivialize by making a comparison to comic book characters.

Friends: Batman doesn't have powers - that makes him SO much
cooler than Spider-Man

It does make him more badass.

And, therefore, cooler.

Re: 27: A theory on all the recent yaoi posts

[dorknessrising.livejournal.com]

Wow. If you let fans make you hate the source, you really are doing it wrong.

And honey? They're only being treated like idiots because they're acting like idiots. If they'd left out the the "I want to read my gen/het without having to see all this icky boysex" line, it would've been a reasonable secret. But that part? There is no way to read that except "make it stop so I can read my fic in peace." And that, my dear friend, is called an entitlement complex.

Fans will write and post what they want to write and post. Don't like it? Tough shit. You don't get to dictate what fandom produces for your own convenience. Either learn how to use search filters, or wade through the crapfic like the rest of us and shut up.

Re: 27 (OP)

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you very much for that clear and, at least I thought, nicely worded argument.

I do wonder why the don't like it don't read it people aren't taking their own advice and... ignoring me. It's an opinion. I posted it as such. I even added a disclaimer about not particularly caring about other people reading yaoi. Unless that's actually in invisible text to everyone else.

It really doesn't help me like yaoi any more, you're right there.

Re: 27 (OP)

[(Anonymous)]

I do wonder why the don't like it don't read it people aren't taking their own advice and... ignoring me.

because you have also shown you are incapable of doing so as well. it's a circular logic your caught in now.

you can have your fucking opinion. if people don't want their yaoi commented on as to how much you hate it, then they can just not post it.

except they do. so you are entitled to bitch about it.

by your bitching about it, you are setting it up for those you are bitching about to comment about you.

which they do.

and the circle of wank has come back to the beginning.

Re: 27 (OP)

[(Anonymous)]

But, as I said up there, I did not tell people to ignore me. I merely wonder why they can't. And I really do not care if people respond to me. I like arguing. :3

Re: 27: A theory on all the recent yaoi posts

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

See, but the only way I can even conceive of sympathizing with the OP at all is if they are talking about fanwork in their secret. Fanwork (that you like) takes time to find, and then there's the quality issue -- it seems people here are just taking it on themselves to advise the OP on how to avoid the yaoi stuff they claim not to like.

But if it's fandom secrets we're talking about... I agree with someone else that a) it takes like two seconds to read through a secret, and more importantly, b) if you can't even stand the mention of slash/yaoi and demand for there to be more het to somehow counterbalance the pain or something, then there is only one word for you: homophobic. No, I'm not mincing.

Re: 27: A theory on all the recent yaoi posts

[akai_senshi.livejournal.com]

I see your point.

However, fans=/=pairings. If I had to leave fandom for every time someone either called me a "homophobe" (for being a het/gen/yuri shipper) or a "faggot" (for being a gay man who OMG DARED to tread on the holy fangirl ground of yaoi), I would barely be on the Internet anymore, or would have caused enough drama to start another Fandom!Katrina. I acknowledge your feelings, but it happens to me too. Fandom is insane sometimes.