[ SECRET POST #2805 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2805 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 054 secrets from Secret Submission Post #401.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I'm with you - (and then I'm going to walk the hell away from this whole thread because my nerves can't take it)

I mean, let's face it, Jews in other countries DID NOT WORK OUT WELL. In fact, it's still not! Schoolkids in Australia attacked? Jews in New York attacked on the streets and beaten? Shops looted in France? is this the fucking Middle Ages or what?

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is still a bestseller. Hell, one of the Hamas spokespeople resurrected a fucking blood libel on TV. Jews were blamed, in Arab media, for the goddam tsunami in Japan.

I live in Israel, and let me tell you, the only difference is that our soldiers are better at protecting us than the Hamas (because hey, our soldiers don't use us as human shields, woohoo). We've had hundreds of rockets per day shot at us. It's like somebody standing in front of you with a machine gun and shooting and shooting and the police saying they won't convict him because he missed.

[(Anonymous)]

You built your country on land that was already occupied, and did noting to try and win over the pre-existing populace but instead herded them into ghettos and built walls around them. #NoSympathy.

[(Anonymous)]

lol, the Arabs have been attacking them there since even before Israel was formed

[(Anonymous)]

... and if you are making that statment and live in the US ... well, let us savor the irony.

[(Anonymous)]

So does that mean the surviving native Americans would be right to start fucking up some whities?

Can native Americans start using human shields and start killing white Americans? and still be considered to be in the right with the press? Because that shit is overdue for them.

Does that mean the IRA where the good guys?

Oh, no, they were the bad guys. The native American uprising would be a bad thing. Know why? Because in both those scenarios the people they would be attacking are not jews.
If you want to do bad guy things, and be thought of as the good guys, make sure you pick on the jews.
And this mentality is fucking everywhere, and is the reason Israel is taking precisely ZERO% shit from anyone attacking them.

[(Anonymous)]

The IRA were the good guys. Not perfect - I don't support everything they did, and atrocities were committed on both sides - but they were the good guys.

And American Indians had a lot of right on their side in violently resisting American expansionism in the 19th century, and have a lot of legitimate and valid claims against the American government today.

Similarly, Palestine has many valid and legitimate claims against Israel, even if both sides do bad things. These are actually very good analogies you're making here, so well done.

[(Anonymous)]

The IRA were not the good guys. The ones who marched peacefully, and came to the table peacefully, and talked peacefully, they were the good guys. The ones who planted bombs, and murdered people in front of their families and then hid the bodies, and shot and killed British soldiers in the last few years, they were not the good guys.

The outcome does not justify the means.

[(Anonymous)]

They were bad times on both sides and both sides were intensely violent and did many things wrong. I refuse to place the blame solely on the IRA for the violence and ultimately, the IRA were fighting to redress legitimate grievances that were not being heard and that were being responded to with violence.

(and, for reference, I was never talking about the Continuity IRA or any of those assholes, which I would have hoped would have been obvious but w/e)

[insanenoodlyguy]

I'm willing to accept that the IRA had good people in it.

But thinking the IRA itself was good is just so insane I deleted a paragraph of text because there is no fucking reasoning with somebody like you.

[(Anonymous)]

They were fighting to redress serious and real grievances. Even setting aside the question of independence, there were real and profound and glaring injustices in Northern Irish society, and the IRA and similar organizations developed in response to that injustice, and to the refusal of those in power to make serious changes, and the violent reactions that were seen on both sides.

I didn't and don't say that they were perfect. They did some awful things. People on both sides did awful, awful things. The Troubles were not a good time. But, on the whole, the IRA were responding to serious injustices.

[(Anonymous)]

Agreed. Wow. Someone actually said "the IRA are the good guy," with no irony whatsoever. I didn't think that level of naivete existed.

[insanenoodlyguy]

What actions were right or wrong in your opinion, there was no fucking winning over the locals. That was never going to happen.

[(Anonymous)]

Like there was any chance of "winning over" the pre-existing populace, are you that fucking naive?

Also, my history textbook may have been biased or incorrect, but weren't the Arabs the first ones to attack, with the PLO and all that?

[(Anonymous)]

Your history book is leaving out the campaign on bombings and terrorism that was conducted by Jewish terrorists in order to get a toehold in the Palestinian Mandate and set up the country. Israel is a country that was founded only because of a successful terrorist invasion plan.

[(Anonymous)]

Was that before or after the 1920 Arab riots and the 1921 Jaffa riots?

[(Anonymous)]

Are you seriously going to play the "Who Started It" game?

[(Anonymous)]

That's how most countries in the world have been founded (well, perhaps not terrorist invasion, but certainly invasion).

And that's the thing I don't get about these arguments. The Palestinians weren't originally there, either. People of various ethnicities have been fighting over that barren scrap of land for thousands of years, but because this happens to be the conflict that is freshest in our collective memories, we latch onto it and say things like "but Israel stole from Palestine." We care about land ownership, but it's almost as if we put a statute of limitations on it, as defined by how close we personally are in time. It was yours five hundred years ago, you say? Ah, well, but it was this guy's eighty years ago, and my grandmother was alive then, so that seems more legit.

[(Anonymous)]

To what end? How far would you go in this support? Is there any limit to what you think Israel should be able to do?

[(Anonymous)]

DA (that is also from Israel- woo there's more than one of us???)

I always hate it when people outside of Israel ask that question- because it's so obvious they know NOTHING about what is going on here. Do you think all Israelis are monoliths who think the same? Do you not realize we have our own internal issues, our left and right, our minorities, our discourse based on our experience in our country that we actually have to live in? What kind of a question is that- "To what end"? What do you expect, that at some point Israelis will lift their hands up and say "oh, yeah, this totally crosses the line, so I now want Israel to be destroyed"? This isn't going to happen.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm sorry, that wasn't my intent. I don't think that Israeli politics is a monolith and I'm aware that there are many different points of view and priorities in Israeli politics. I meant to ask a specific question to a specific person about their statement about supporting Israel.

Let me see if I can explain what I meant a little better... To me, it's one thing to say that you support a country. I support my country, I'm sure most people support their countries, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. The question is what that support means, and how it influences your actions and attitudes. How that support issues into political choices. So to me, saying that you support your country for X, Y, and Z reasons is all very well and good, but it's in some ways an empty statement. It's not just a question of whether or not you support Israel, it's a question of what that support of Israel means when we're talking in the specific context of the Palestinian question, and what actions that support will justify. I don't think that question is out of line.

In the same way, I support my country, but that doesn't mean that I support everything that they do. I think it's legitimate to ask someone who says that they support Israel what supporting Israel means to them personally, and that's what I meant to ask. I hope that is somewhat clearer.

I also have to say that, from the outside looking in, it seems like far less of an existential threat than it apparently does to you. It's really hard for me to imagine a course of events where Israel is destroyed. But that's a point of view I suppose.

[(Anonymous)]

Am not Jewish and I agree with you. Can't Jewish people have one fucking country?

You lost that war, Arabs. Move.

[(Anonymous)]

Ouch. I'm not Jewish or Arab, and this? - "You lost that war, Arabs. Move." - is ridiculously simplistic.

I'm sure that if the same thing were to happen to you, and you found yourself on the wrong side of a conflict that you may not even have participated in, you'll happily pick up and leave everything you have, and move for the greater good. Only to find that no other countries will take you in, because there's way too many of you.

[(Anonymous)]

how about no one moves

[(Anonymous)]

Yes.

And to add to that--stop starting wars you can't win. Israel always finishes your wars for you. And then you fucking whine that you lost and how it must've been unfair. (Cf., Lisa Halaby/Queen Noor's autobiography. Fascinating story but my God, did she whine about Israel winning wars that the Palestinians had started.) I actually saw, more than once, people on tumblr arguing that Israel should allow themselves to be bombed because they were so superior. I had to tell one poster "that's not how war works. If someone else starts the war, you play to win and you finish the war."

[(Anonymous)]

>Yeah I'm with you
>I live in Israel

big shocker