[ SECRET POST #2882 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2882 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 061 secrets from Secret Submission Post #412.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

11. http://i60.tinypic.com/wck1s8.png

[silverr]

It is super tough to get a beta like that, OP. I sometimes tell people I'm looking for an "alpha" -- someone to poke at the skeleton of the story before I start fleshing it out -- but in 12 years of writing fanfic I've only ever found a few people who are willing/able to do that. ~ One thing that might help is try to find someone who's looking for that sort of tough critique, and then see if they'd offer to do a trade (because in my experience the type who wants that sort of concrit can also give it.)

Another thing that sometime helps get your beta to be less "nice" is to be tough on their work: sometimes they'll give you brutal honesty in retaliation.

[(Anonymous)]

Maybe find another writer and do this for each other? What you're describing requires a pretty close relationship in the fandom world. Someone willing to go deep with a beta might even hold back the first time or two as they try to figure out if you really want concrit, or are just saying that, because plenty of people have had negative experiences with that kind of thing.

[dreemyweird]

Yes, seconding all of this.

Unless asked explicitly for honest concrit, I never offer any. A couple of my friends are very sensitive and easily lose faith in themselves; I wouldn't want that at all.

[(Anonymous)]

See if there are any beta readers in your fandom that also work at a writing center. One of my friends is one, and she's a brilliant beta.

[ketita]

I can empathize, OP. I've been lucky enough to have had several betas of that sort in my life (though none for my current fandom, alas), during periods when I needed it the most. But I really miss having my stuff torn to shreds and rebuilt :(

[(Anonymous)]

Seconding the notion that people can sometimes be afraid to offer honest concrit, even when solicited for it. All too often on the internet, suggesting anything other than, "this story is perfect!!1!" backfires terribly.

Do any of your fandoms of choice have any writing exercises or writing groups organized? Visiting those and asking for honest concrit has worked for a couple of writers I know.

(I actually am the kind of beta you're looking for and I almost never volunteer my services because: a) people often don't mean it when they say they want concrit, b) my reading tastes in fandoms, characters, and pairings are pretty narrow, and c) that kind of intensive beta work can be exhausting, though that last is probably less of an issue in your case.)

[nayance]

I feel you. The things I have trouble with are the usual wrong-word choice, but more than that, it's a lack of clarity and too much fluff/filler crap. I'm infinitely lucky that I have a friend who doesn't mind being really brutal about what does or doesn't work, and I really wish more people would have the confidence to do that, because it's a lot more helpful to me than just encouragement - both for my technique, and for my confidence in my work.

[dreemyweird]

I would actually be willing to do this, provided I at least do not dislike the fandom the writer does stuff for. I do not offer my services as a SPaG beta (seeing as I'm an ESL and so absolutely do not trust myself when it comes to this), but judging the plot, the characterization, the dialogue - I'd gladly do that.

(I do understand you, too. While I don't have the problem, I don't think you're being ungrateful at all.)

[(Anonymous)]

In my experience, a lot of people offering to beta either don't have the skills or the stomach for it. Even if you manage to filter through the first set, there's often such a desire not to offend the writer in some way that a lot of betas don't actually edit, they just proofread.

Having done and received professional editing, I make a point of asking anyone who requests work from me to set out the level of editing they want from me/are comfortable with. Do they just want the proofing and the pat on the back, do they want a basic "Does this make sense?" search for plotholes, or do they want a professional level edit where everything is taken apart, from structure to vocabulary to plot to character development? Not a lot of fanfic writers want either the work or the time that goes into that sort of in-depth beta. They want a quick once-over so they can post it ASAP.

If you're not very familiar with your beta, then it's possible you wouldn't have such boundaries set out -- if they don't know what you expect, or where your "Do Not Cross!" line is, it's not going to be very satisfying for anybody. OP sounds like they've tried to do this, which is always a good start.

But yeah, between not wanting to hurt the writer's feelings and not being at a skill level high enough to offer useful concrit (there IS a different between just being a voracious reader who can spot a few spelling mistakes and being a beta, but I feel a lot of people don't think so) a lot of betas turn into ineffectual and lukewarm cheerleaders instead.

[dreemyweird]

This is a very good comment. I bet you were awesome at your job, anon.

[(Anonymous)]

This is why I just stopped seeking a beta tbh. If I've improved this much over the years on my own, I can keep on improving all by myself. It would be easier with an editor, but meh.

[(Anonymous)]

Unlike the unsolicited well meaning and usually useless conceit on published stories, people willing and able to stand over your shoulder and point out weak spots are rarer then hen's teeth. More's the pity.

[(Anonymous)]

This is why I don't use a beta either. Yeah, typos get past me because I see what I expect, but I can catch my own grammatical errors better than most of the betas I've used (some of whom introduced new errors in the process of "correcting"). I want a plot and characterization beta, not SPAG, but I just can't find one.

[(Anonymous)]

Finding a good beta is hard, OP. Most people who beta will do superficial editing, spellcheck/grammar, etc. Identifying weaknesses and things that don't work in your story is a lot harder to do, and there aren't many people who are both qualified and skilled to do that AND have the time. I don't think it's ungrateful to wish for someone who could help you out with a more in-depth critique. Good luck finding that person, OP!

[(Anonymous)]

I am the beta you are looking for. *L*

However, after having suggestions stomped on and being told that I'm too discouraging or having it sobbed to me that, "See? I knew my writing was crap!" I rarely venture to use my editing skills.

Honestly, I'm not a harsh critic. I never try to have someone rewrite plot points or anything, it's more, "This seems awkward, try rephrasing." and "Something is missing here, you might need to fill in more background.", but the writer-ego is a delicate thing, I guess. As a beta it discouraged me so much that I now only offer to people that I know won't get huffy or despondent (that limits me to about 3 people I beta for).

[(Anonymous)]

I've found I get more of the kind of feedback I want when I identify specific issues I'm concerned about: 'Is my pacing off? Was the motivation for this character well-explained?' It makes it clear I want critique on the substance, and it gives the beta something specific to respond to.

[(Anonymous)]

See, I would be 100% willing to do this for people, but most people don't actually want you to be honest to that degree. Most people (in my fandom, at least) just want reaffirmation and no concrit.

What fandom are you in, anon?

[(Anonymous)]

The short answer: no casual fan is really willing to spend that much time betaing a fic, because finding and fixing plot holes and having a more in-depth back and forth takes hours, days even. You want an actual editor for that.

[(Anonymous)]

How bizarre. I recently sent a fic to a beta for the first time ever (I've been writing fic for over 10 years but this is the first time I felt I needed an objective opinion) and she gave a wonderful, serious critique, pointing out a huge flaw that I didn't notice.

[(Anonymous)]

Uhg, same. Not for fic but for short stories. I used to send them to my (now ex) girlfriend and ask her if there was anything that didn't make sense, and 100% of the time all I would get back was "OMG IT'S AMAZING"
I kept saying "Really... there was NOTHING that could have been better?"
And the response was always "IT'S PERFECT DON'T CHANGE A THING"

Well, I know it's not perfect. It's annoying when you're looking for concrit but people would rather just pander with compliments. *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

Agreed. :(

[(Anonymous)]

OP if you want that you are best of having two betas. One who knows the fandom but isn't a part of it and will happily rip apart and one who is involved but will do everything as well. The former will likely be more brutal if they don't have their own fic, I found since a lot of authors say 'concrit me' meaning 'squea only please' a lot of other authors are wary.

[(Anonymous)]

Along with the other suggestions of finding other writers -- writers whose own work quality meshes with your own -- another thing I'd suggest is getting a beta completely unfamiliar with your fandom. That way, they're going to see things with fresh eyes, things that don't make any sense from a plot perspective. They're going to be invested in helping you with the story, not in enjoying the story as a fellow fan.

[mimi-sardinia.livejournal.com]

This is the reason I don't beta for anything more than spelling and grammar. I am a terribly accepting reader who is disinclined to see faults due to pure fannish glee. I can see faults after the fact, if some points them out to me, but on my first reading? I'm a bit blind.

I have the same thing with other media, as I have noticed while reading around this place how critical some fans can be and how uncritical I am.

I don't blame you for wanting a beta who can be critical and help you tighten up plots and such, but the problem may be that a lot of betas are not very good at those functions, but less able to self-identify that fact than I am.