[ SECRET POST #2917 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2917 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 040 secrets from Secret Submission Post #417.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[likeadeuce]

I'm sad for everyone on this thread who is being wrong about Hawkeye ;), but really Winry and Riza are both great and there should be more fic about the two of them hanging out and just *getting* each other in a way nobody else does because that is just canon.

[(Anonymous)]

ITA. I hate it when people reduce Riza's motivation to "she's doing it for Roy." It was shown quite clearly in canon that she is haunted by what she did in the war and she is trying to atone and make sure that atrocities like that won't happen again.

[likeadeuce]

Right, I mean, the canon's not perfect -- partly because I've written a lot of Riza-centric fic, I could go on about the things I wish were in there -- but I can't help feeling like some people have internalized, "Woman being motivated by her relation to a man" as "bad" and don't want to look beyond that?

[caerbannog]

*zones in* do share.

[likeadeuce]

Which part? The things I wish were in there?

More of Riza's relationship with alchemy, more of her life outside of her work relationships, more than the little tease we get of Riza + Winry, more of Riza and Roy and Hughes all being in it together before [Volume 4 happens]. The place this really gets me is actually in 'Brotherhood,' because I understand a lot of this wasn't placed in the early part of the manga, since it's pretty clear Riza's backstory wasn't invented until late in the game, but FMA:B really had an opportunity to take what we know from later on and integrate it with the earlier events and. . .didn't, so much.

[caerbannog]

Haha sorry I meant your fic! But this also is pleasing :D

[likeadeuce]

Oh, hee, well I'm all over AO3 ('You've Got to Choose, a Wish or Command' and 'Hard to Keep Track of You' are the most canon relevant ones. And my fanon's mostly covered in the Roy Mustang's Guide to Ethical Polyamory tag on my journal.

[(Anonymous)]

The bad thing about "woman being motivated by a man" is it somehow feels like that aptly describes 90% of central female characters in the media I consume.

[likeadeuce]

It's a fine critique, it just seems weird that people use it to insult Riza's character, in particular, if it's really that common.

The storyline doesn't have to be your cuppa, though, that's cool!

[(Anonymous)]

And that's understandable, but "motivated by a man" isn't wrong itself. It's something that can be done wrong and something that can be done right. And "it happens a lot" shouldn't disqualify it, because it's a real and true part of the human experience.

The fact it happens so often is something that should be criticized, but a character shouldn't be tossed aside just because it's a part of their development. They should be judged based on the whole, not just on a part.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think it's inherently wrong, that it can never be done well, that it doesn't happen IRL and I have nothing against it isolation. Hell, Riza is among my favorite characters on FMA, and I only ever saw the first anime.

What I'm saying is that fictional women are disproportionally shown to be motivated by their relationship to a man, while fictional men get to have much wider pool of reasons for doing things. It's like the Bechdel Test: the point isn't if this or this film passes it, the point is that the sheer number of films that FAIL tells us something about how the film industry at large perceives women.

The fact that so many of our most popular stories tell us that women do things because Some More Important Guy is her boyfriend/brother/childhood friend who she promised to marry, tells us that a lot of our storytellers believe that men are the driving motivation for any important decision in women's lives.

[likeadeuce]

I don't think anybody's disagreeing with you? But I'd gently suggest that the Hawkeye and Mustang relationship, in the mangaverse in particular which is what the secret was about, is a very specific thing and I'm not sure how you can be arguing from a position of knowledge if you only know the first anime story. So making generalizations about how women are portrayed in Hollywood film isn't particularly relevant to the conversation about this particular story/relationship, which isn't from a Hollywood film in any case.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I think I started a different conversation than the one you're having - sorry about that. What I originally replied to wasn't about Hawkeye at all, but the statement that "people talk about women being motivated by men as if that was a BAD thing". I (obviously) think that that is a relevant criticism, but (obviously) one that is fruitless for judging individual stories. Far be it from me to deny that the storyline has been pulled off excellently in a lot of stories. It's just been getting kind of old for the last two hundred years.

[likeadeuce]

No problem, I get what you're saying and sorry if we crossed wires. I just meant to say that it frustrates me to see the frequency with which it's used to critique this particular storyline.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh I agree with you, I just think characters should be judged individually and not based on a trend, even if the trend is something that's worth being criticized.

[(Anonymous)]

Haha, I don't think I've ever held it against my enjoyment of a story in its own, since it clearly can be done as well or as poorly as any other storyline. I just like to point out the trends, too.