[ SECRET POST #2937 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2937 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 056 secrets from Secret Submission Post #420.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I will never understand people who don't want criticism from their betas. Sure, I enjoy gushing from my reading audience (although I will accept their criticism as well). But a beta is supposed to help you write, otherwise they're basically the literary equivalent of a cheerleader -- standing on the sidelines and cheering you on instead of actively engaging with your writing.

[sarillia]

Eh, some people want a cheerleader. As long as expectations are upfront on all sides, I don't see the problem.

[(Anonymous)]

The concept of cheerleaders is fairly new to me, but I think it's a good move in fandom. Especially in the early stages of a long fic, pointing out small mistakes doesn't really help, but having a cheerleader really might encourage you to keep writing.

[diet_poison]

ia - what's the point of a beta? Nothing wrong with cheerleaders, but then you should just have your friends read your fic casually. If you are going out of your way to get a beta and then not changing anything, what's the point?

[elaminator]

That's how I feel about it. I'm not sure it's worth getting angry over, but I understand the confusion.

Maybe this person doesn't have many friends in the fandom they write for and so doesn't have anyone who would want to read their fic?

[(Anonymous)]

Because many writers are this weird combination of deeply insecure, super-sensitive about their work and criticism, yet convinced that anyone who dislikes it or finds fault with it is full of shit. IDK, man.

I once lost a friend (I guess not a very good friend) because she asked me to beta a fic for her and I pointed out ONE tiny mistake. It was a factual error, easily fixed by changing a single word and no reflection at all on her abilities as a writer. She was very good, in fact. But somehow, me pointing out that ham comes from pigs as opposed to cows (made up example) made her flip her shit. She gave me the cold shoulder and then later went off on me about what a Mean Girl I was to hound her like that.

I apologized, but I still have no idea what was up with her. We don't speak anymore. So yeah, I found out the hard way that she thought she wanted a beta, and she said she wanted a beta, but she didn't really want a beta.

[(Anonymous)]

This so much.

Some people don't realise that part of getting a beta is the horrible process of being told you've done stuff wrong. I can sympathise. I still find it tough. It's one of those things, like getting no comments on a fic, that can't be understood until you've experienced it. Even in private, it's embarrassing.

The rest of your ex-friend's behaviour is down to her own childishness and failures of character. It's how we handle difficult experiences that shows our true colours.

You were definitely better off finding out about her sooner rather than later.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I'm sure you're right. We weren't that close, but I thought we were good enough fandom friends and she didn't seem like the overly sensitive type otherwise I would never have agreed to beta for her. I'm still confused by what happened because honestly, it was NOT a major critique by any stretch. I thought she'd just go, "Oh, whoops, my bad!" and then fix it. It was like... on level with a typo. Pointing out a typo isn't a personal attack, ffs, who in their right mind holds a grudge for that sort of thing?

Now I don't beta for anyone. :(

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT

I think all this exemplifies why it's so important to choose your betas well.

Personally, I find it much easier to get crit from someone I don't know and have no emotional ties to. So if a friend beta'd my work and pointed out mistakes I'd cringe, but if someone in whom I have no real investment did the same thing it wouldn't bother me.

Some people are the complete opposite, and would rather have things pointed out by an understanding friend who knew their personality. Finding some random beta, however thoroughly they worked, would feel as though some stranger was barging in and telling them what to do.

I think too many people just jump in all "Yeah, gotta get a beta!" without considering how they react to criticism on a personal level and which method best deals with that while still giving you a nicely edited fic at the end of it all.

[diet_poison]

haha, that is ridiculous.

I'm sorry that happened do you. I also hope you now have better friends.

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt - I do. :) It was more confusing than sad, because we had such different takes on what happened. What felt like a civil exchange to me was a huge, antagonistic deal to her and on reflection... I honestly don't think I was hard on her at all. It's probably for the best we didn't remain friends.

[lb_lee]

Oh man, I hear this. I made the mistake of offering to give my mother's romance novel in progress a red penning.

She... was not thrilled when she got her work back looking like a butcher had attacked it.

I myself am bad and don't have a beta; I don't want to wait a few days to post a story when I got paid just now. I try to self-edit as best I can, but I still get typos and html borks pointed out by my kindly readers. (And I have had a great reader say she was disappointed in one story, and spelled out exactly why and how. I really appreciated that, even though it stung a little.)

The REALLY humiliating part is when there's a typo or HTML bork and NOBODY TELLS ME. Months, YEARS even, my Labyrinth fic had borked HTML and I NEVER KNEW TILL NOW.

[(Anonymous)]

Some people like the idea that their work has undergone tough scrutiny by a beta, but in reality most people cannot take that level of concrit. It's a problem I've run into many times when people assure me that oh yes, they want me to run their fic through the gauntlet, no holding back! So I take their word for it and do a thorough job and they get all upset because deep down, they didn't expect me to find anything wrong.

It's a puzzling facet of human behavior, but it happens so often.

[(Anonymous)]

You can intellectually know there are going to be problems with your fic, yet emotionally not be ready to have them pointed out.

I think part of it is that it can take so goddamn long to write a fic. It becomes very personal. And the mistakes the beta highlights are never the ones you expected.

I have to struggle with my emotions every time I get a beta, but it's worth it in the long run.

I've never had anyone get aggressive with me after I betaed for them, thank goodness. But many fic authors have just politely disappeared and dropped their fics, even though I tried hard to say at least as many nice things in my betas as the mistakes I pointed out. Especially the ones I suspected were quite young. They get discouraged easily. The more experienced writers are better at saying to my face "I've decided not to get any betas any more, it spoils my fandom fun" which is fine.

But then, yeah. A couple of years later and their writing has sadly stagnated.

[(Anonymous)]

I have only beta'd twice.

The first time the person had so many factual things wrong that were easily googleable, plus a lot of grammar errors. I tried to be as nice as possible, but I don't think it helped as they weren't happy and when they published their story, they credited a different beta. I didn't actually end up reading the story as published, but I'm guessing they didn't bother to change any of the errors that were in there.

The second time the person had many errors as well and the ending was completely impossible. I suggested some ways to fix it to make it possible, but I don't think they cared for it, and I never saw it published.

And then I gave up. Because it was no fun doing all of the writing corrections and research for these stories only to have the people not want to hear it. Let them have their cheerleaders and I'll likely backspace out of their fics for being awful if I actually see them "published".

[(Anonymous)]

Not crediting you was rude. I always credit, even if I don't agree with a beta. I just don't work with that beta again.

Two bad experiences in a row is definitely no fun.

[(Anonymous)]

Ugh, that sounds like a nightmare, tbh. Some writers aren't really interested in realistic plots or accuracy and they get offended when other people notice the enormous plot holes. I have no idea why they bother writing in the first place. Even if you're just doing it for fun, asking for a beta and then going off in a huff when the beta does their job is ridiculous.

[(Anonymous)]

Recently, a friend of mine asked me to edit an original novel they were trying to get published. It was only a friendly "if you have the time" sort of agreement, but I realized pretty early on that there were a lot of issues that needed addressing in the book.

A lot of these issues were prevalent throughout the manuscript, so I thought at least if I pointed those things out early on, they could work on those problems while I went through and did a deeper edit.

A couple of months later I get told they've decided to publish it already, despite my only being about halfway through with the edits. I was a little surprised, but pleased for them, and figured that they must have submitted a version of the manuscript with the basic errors at least fixed up.

Turns out? No. All the problems I'd highlighted in the very first chapter were still there, despite a supposed "professional" edit (that's one publisher I won't be touching with a ten foot pole, let me tell you). One glaring factual error in the first chapter also remained. I didn't read much past that.

The worst part is that when I see this book getting reviews, readers are highly critical of the very things I'd told my friend to change, precisely because I KNEW readers would pick up on them and get irritated. I don't know whether to feel a very petty sense of satisfaction that I was right, or embarrassed and upset that something that had such potential is getting bad criticism now for things that I -and really, any half-decent beta would have- pointed out at the very beginning.

[tabaqui]

Yeah, people who don't want their beta to actually...beta baffle me. My beta is awesome, points out *all* my mistakes, tells me when i've dropped a stitch or whatever, and gets that sometimes my 'style' isn't perfectly in line with Proper English Grammar and knows when to let it slide and when to tell me it's too much.

I don't mind gushing, but from my beta i want *facts*, not praise. The praise can some when i've fixed a weird sentence so that it finally reads coherently *and* conveys what i want it to convey.

[lb_lee]

Yup! I actually get really sore when I ask for critique and just get a, "you're good." It's like NO, I know what I do good, I want to know what I do BAD so I can fix it!

It's really frustrating. I feel like some kind of editing masochist, shrieking, "HARDER! GIVE IT TO ME!"

"No, dude, you've had enough."

"GIVE IT TO ME ARGHLEBARGHLE"

[tabaqui]

Heeeee!!
Yes! I mean, okay, yes, i write well. I'm not gonna lie. But i'm not perfect, and i can fall into bad habits. So - if i ask you - speak up!!

[(Anonymous)]

I think it depends on what kind of beta that you want. I've asked (and received) beta for grammar only. I find asking someone to analyze my content incredibly overwhelming and paralyzing.

That said, people really should be upfront up exactly what kind of betaing that they want.

[(Anonymous)]

"What kind of beta do you want?" should always be the first thing agreed on between both parties, I agree.

Sometimes I specifically ask for my beta to not tell me any major errors that would screw up plot or continuity. If it's a long story I've been working on for months I'm not going to change it and really don't want to know. I'm not getting paid for it, after all.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree, but IME part of the problem is people not realizing what they want. As in, they genuinely believe they want tough concrit, but actually they don't, or they have a misleading idea of what tough concrit actually means. If a writer thinks a tough beta is someone who's a grammar nazi, they're not going to be happy if their beta points out massive plot holes and OOCness, for example.

So while you should always ask and people should be upfront... well, that's not going to be a foolproof plan because people fool themselves.

[(Anonymous)]

Because you can grow as a writer by learning from your mistakes. They're often invisible to you yourself.