fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2950 ]

[ SECRET POST #2950 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2950 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 065 secrets from Secret Submission Post #422.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I mean, that's kind of the question, isn't it?

How can women know that? And how can women know how those differences affect the lived experiences, to the point of being able to come to definite judgments on an issue like this?

Again, I want to be clear here: I don't think this is really a serious issue, and I definitely don't think it's any kind of oppression or injustice. I'm only interested in the logic behind the argument, because it interests me.

Look dude. I'm a guy who's mostly dependent on public transit. I've been squished by guys who act like their testicles are the size of basketballs, and I find it really annoying. If someone is just big in general, or carrying a big bag or medical gear, they can't help it. But squeezing my legs into a corner just so someone can pretend their dick's the size of Paris, that's just inconsiderate.

ESPECIALLY DURING RUSH HOUR. Dude, if your dick needs that much space, just stand up for the love of god. It's more considerate of the people around you.

--Rogan

Hey! That's completely fair. And I probably should have been clearer in writing the initial post. But I'm not really trying to defend manspreading, I don't think, or really pursue any agenda, so much as I'm curious about the differences in how people argue about these issues. Again, it was my bad in not making that clearer from the start.

I admit, I find your way of arguing a little annoying, because this doesn't seem to be something that really impacts you. You also seem kind of interested in arguing whether women can truly know what male bodies require, which really rubs me the wrong way.

I don't think it requires any great gender intelligence or biological knowledge to be aware that no, men's bodies do NOT require that much space. Because if they did, the seats would've been made with that in mind, and those guys wouldn't be able to WALK. And it kind of irks me that I feel the need to quantify my own gender to join that conversation.

--Rogan

I'm sorry. I mean, I don't think I'm trying to prove anything or argue any thesis here; I'm trying to be as sincere as possible. And while it's not something that has great stakes personally, I do think it's an interesting topic, and it's one that I'm really sincerely interested in, not for political reasons but just because it interests me.

FWIW I really don't want to require anyone to quantify their gender to join the conversation. But there is a line of criticism and thought that - at least unless I've catastrophically misunderstood it, in which case, tell me so - that men can't know what women's bodies or women's experiences are like (in terms of interior experience - not, like, biological science). That they're categorically incapable of such knowledge. And it's not an argument that I'm trying to disprove. It seems to me that it has at least some plausibility on the face of it (although there's obviously complications in that theory when you get down to the level of details, and also in talking about the experiences of trans individuals, which I don't think I have a good answer for). But it also seems to conflict with the logic that underlies the criticism of manspreading. I don't think it's a really serious conflict, I don't think it's oppression or injustice, I think it's very low stakes, but there's something there that didn't make sense, to me. And I really am interested in people's thoughts about how those two things fit together and how people make sense of it.

Of course, looking at the answer that I got, it was one that pretty much rejected the whole initial logic that I was starting out from, which maybe implies that I was coming at this from incorrect starting premises. But even if that's the case, I'm glad that I was able to get that answer. I hope that I've been able to explain some of the background of where I'm coming from here but, again, I'm sorry if I've gone about this in a way that's irresponsible or unproductive.

But there is a line of criticism and thought that - at least unless I've catastrophically misunderstood it, in which case, tell me so - that men can't know what women's bodies or women's experiences are like (in terms of interior experience - not, like, biological science).

I have heard it, but I think you're misconstruing it. The version I have heard is that basically dudes need to shut up pretending they understand things they are highly unlikely to ever personally experience--pregnancy and abortion, for instance. It's not that men are so fucking dumb they can't understand women; it's that those who are so arrogant they think they know better than women need to shut up and actually LISTEN.

Manspreading is not comparable, because (A) women can take up space on the train and be pains in the ass too, if they want, and (B) men can experience being squished by assholes ventilating their junk, like me. You're comparing apples and oranges, and your base reasoning is misunderstood anyway.

And even if we took the base reasoning as true (and there are enough jerks of every flavor that I'm sure SOMEONE has argued it), it's bunk. I'm trans, and I KNOW that my gender changed over time. I was never one of those trans folks who believed their gender was fixed from the very start. And I CERTAINLY don't think I could only understand women's experiences till I became a man, at which point I instantly only understood men's experiences. A lot of cis dudes are still Greek to me. I feel more in common with my trans women friends than my cis men friends.

--Rogan

Honestly, though, once your actions of trying to make yourself comfortable start to make the people around you uncomfortable, your right to personal comfort has been trumped.

Yes, but in this case both the man spreaders and the people who hate man spreading are only concerned with their own comfort, so who's comfort should take priority?

I'd say the person whose comfort is being negatively affected by someone else's body.

It's pretty creepy to me to imply that a man's comfort is important enough that it's acceptable for him to make the people around him uncomfortable because of a physical intrusion, tbh.

I think that there's a lot of validity to that point. But it would also seem like it kind of relies on being able to determine relative levels of comfort and discomfort? Because, like, if it were a case where someone could make themselves extremely more comfortable while only making other people a very little uncomfortable, we'd be okay with that. So it seems like you fall into subjective experiences again.

And just to be clear, I'm not really trying to defend manspreading here! I think it's probably just people being dicks, and I'm not really trying to argue that it's that big of an issue in terms of comfort. I'm much more interested in the underlying logic going on. I hope that I haven't given any wrong impressions here but I really am sincerely interested in what you think about it.

I guess I hadn't thought that far (the extreme discomfort thing) because as far as I've ever heard it's not extreme discomfort. I have no personal experience as such ~~one of several perks of having indoor plumbing!~~ but I've never seen a man claim it's on the level of extreme discomfort or pain.

However, I have experienced having peoples' body parts in my space on public transit - and NOT just men. It's usually men if it's legs, but men and women alike are reckless with their elbows. :/ I really, really do not like it. I wouldn't say it's extreme discomfort, either, though. (Could be if the person was pushy or creepy but I've experienced far more uncomfortable things.)

In an instance where one person's slight discomfort/inconvenience can alleviate another's great discomfort/inconvenience...it kind of depends. Say you're stopped at a traffic light for a minute so one person can make a turn they otherwise would have had to wait ten minutes to make. That's a reasonable expectation - that you'll stop at traffic lights to allow other traffic to pass. But we also have rules that you agree to when you apply for a driver's license. You voluntarily agree to accept those terms. So I'm not sure that's a great example. And the rules of the road have nothing to do with bodily integrity, which in my mind includes personal space. I find it hard to justify ever forcing someone to give up their bodily autonomy for the sake of someone else's comfort.

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[ SECRET POST #2950 ]

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