fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3034 ]

[ SECRET POST #3034 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3034 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 096 secrets from Secret Submission Post #434.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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We're not going to agree on that because I don't think that is misandry.

Then I have to assume you've never spent any time in male spaces or seen any radfem groups advocating downright hateful shit.

Perhaps you should try it, it might change your mind.

My guess here is that some would label that more toxic masculinity rather than misandry.

Misandry is dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against men (i.e., the male sex).

I do agree with the spirit of your argument though. I think I would just describe that as toxic masculinity rather than misandry because I don't think it's particularly hateful/prejudiced/contemptuous towards men as a whole. But harmful? Absolutely.

Though there are radfem groups that are legitimately misandristic.

Like I said, though, I agree with the thrust of your argument. I'd just use a different word.

Luckily for the world, radfems are not a group who hold any significant power (at least, not over men).

I'm pretty sure only fandomsecrets and reddit think that "radfems" are actually a thing to be worried about.

I think most MRA-type groups think that. And most feminists find them embarrassing, but not threatening. I don't think F!S overall thinks they're a major concern - we think they're icky and awful, but not a threat.

I don't think it's particularly hateful/prejudiced/contemptuous towards men as a whole

Well, that's definitely what it looks like from the outside, so I see where you're coming from. But unless you were actually subject to it, I think it can be very difficult to judge the intent of supportive statements encouraging toxic masculinity.

Like the more subtle female-female misogyny that exists in female dominated spaces, the male-male misandry that comes under the guise of toxic masculinity can be pretty damn hateful, actually. A lot of the hatred stems from the same place as racism, homophobia, and transphobia (and those are often elements that are also included) but hatred of non-conforming men is a real thing. If you want a good example just watch a thread of people reacting to femdom where the woman takes a dominant role in the relationship. The hatred towards "weak" men flows freely, like a giant stream of watery diarrhea.

I'll grant you, it's not always about hate and disempowerment but it is in certain situations.

I will admit to not being a man and thus perhaps my opinion isn't as insightful here.

But I suppose it doesn't seem like misandry to me because it's not hating men FOR BEING men. It hates men for not being the "right type" of men -- of not behaving in expected ways.

When we talk about misogyny, to me, that reflects hatred of women precisely because they're women.

I guess I'll say that the semantic issues aren't what bother me so much as the fact that men feel an immense pressure to "live up" to these highly unhealthy (often emotionally-stunting) "ideals."

Either way, I'll bow out because I'm not exactly an expert here and I don't think it's my place to try to define these terms.

I think if we can make distinctions and say that the word misogyny is often applied to the disdain for women who aren't the "right type" of women, that the word misandry can be applied in an approximately equivalent manner.

There are broader categories of misandry as well, of course, I'm just trying to use an easily accessible example (since it's one I'm personally familiar with).

Also, I don't think this is a discussion that should strictly be had by men because that usually leads to the MRA failing of assuming that there is more misandry going on than there actually is: a common byproduct of having an insular group that doesn't consider the broader picture. Plus, I have to believe as a male feminist that the best way to tackle these issues is as a united front against gender inequality, regardless of which gender is on the receiving end.

I just don't want to talk over you is all.

It's an issue that concerns me a lot because I have a little brother and I see the ways in which he performs masculinity around his friends (and he's not even a teenager yet).

Such as in his online gaming matches, he'll speak with a deeper voice and let himself get excited much less readily.

He's much more emotionally open with me than he is with his friends where they're always trying to appear collected and "cool." And I just can't help but feel a little sorry him having to do that (although I know this isn't exclusive to guys since girls go through the same super self-conscious phase).

Where misogyny comes into play vs. misandry though is that even if a woman is the "right type" of woman, she's still not seen as equal by misogynists because she's a woman. Whereas a man who is the "right type" of man will be perceived as equal and worthwhile.

Something I would define as misandry might be how little we as a society trust single men with children. Because that's a mistrust that exist due to the fact that a person is male. It doesn't matter if he fits all of society's "ideals" about masculinity, BECAUSE he is male, he will be viewed with suspicion where a woman is not. Its flipside though is tied to the misogynistic notion of women as inherent caretakers rather than breadwinners.

But I do 100% agree with you that the best way of dealing with these issues is to present a united front.

Yep. Those are pretty much all cogent points, and I will say that I'm not one of those people who seriously believes misandry is "as much of a problem as misogyny", because that's patently untrue.

On the other hand, I do have a problem with people who refuse to believe it or see it just because they feel men have it good enough already.

Nobody has it good enough. It's not "good", imo, until everyone is equal and no one is pressured into performing a role that they don't want to just because someone told them that is how they are supposed to behave.

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(Anonymous) - 2015-04-25 22:02 (UTC) - Expand

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herpymcderp - 2015-04-25 22:08 (UTC) - Expand

nayrt

I've often wondered why so many of my friends have such disdain for self-described male feminists, and now I know. Thank you for that enormous belly-laugh.

1/10 because I'm replying to give you a rating.

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(Anonymous) - 2015-04-25 22:07 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2015-04-26 00:45 (UTC) - Expand

because Herpy = all male feminists?

(Seriously, I really wish guys wouldn't be afraid to be involved in feminism and I wish female feminists wouldn't be disdainful of them for trying. I don't think it helps)

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herpymcderp - 2015-04-25 23:27 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2015-04-26 00:47 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

diet_poison - 2015-04-26 05:24 (UTC) - Expand

dude, Philstar isn't saying those things don't exist. They're saying they don't think "misandry" is the right word for them. Disagreeing on semantics doesn't mean they're trying to trivialize peoples' experiences or hate groups' bullshit.

The distinction of whether or not those things are misandry and whether or not misandry exists is a mighty large one, I think. I took that to mean philstar said they didn't think it exists period, and that's what I was going off of. But let's be clear for a minute:

Is toxic/performative/unattainable masculinity always misandry? No. Of course not. It depends on the context and intent of its usage.

Does misandry exist? I think so. I think there are a lot of examples of it, and I was only using one to illustrate my point.

Is misandry as big a problem as misogyny? Absolutely not. Not even close. But denying that it exists simply because the patriarchy still exists is kind of a black and white way of looking at it.

I guess you and I had very different interpretations of Philstar's comments.

As for the rest I'm not even trying to have that argument with you, why did you bring all that up exactly?

Well I guess I brought it up because I didn't realize there were two different ways to interpret, "I don't believe misandry exists."

I just wanted to be very clear where I was coming from.

I could tell you I believe there is no such thing as a groundhog because the only legitimate term for that animal is "woodchuck".

Seriously, what Philstar was saying isn't that the attitudes you're arguing don't exist; it's that they don't think they can be accurately titled "misandry" and thus, "misandry" does not exist. I'm not saying I agree completely with them, but I think it's pretty obvious that's what they meant. (If I'm wrong, please correct me, Philstar!)

Doesn't domestic violence towards men count as misandry because of "why they hell you let your bitch go tramp on you, bro?"

(no subject)

diet_poison - 2015-04-27 04:02 (UTC) - Expand

pssst, radfem groups advocating against men is not misandry. Because women do not have power over men in any human society. It's just bawwwwww poor men :((((((

No one cares about your shitty attempt at trolling. I would appreciate a little effort, and to see some unique artistic style, something that really says you as a troll, in your next try.

This generic quoting of "privaluge equals power pluz privilege" or w/e shit just doesn't cut it.

Blah Blah Blah stupid comment attempting to derail. Generic + "privaluge" + trolling + moar buzzwords. No one cares about your attempt at trolling.

I, as an artist who respects creative integrity, and intellectual property, I am DISGUSTED at how much you have copied me. Do you not have ANY value or respect for originality? You're a laughing stock. It's cheesy, it's disgusting; I personally find it artistically atrocious.

Yes. Thank you. I wish people could grasp this basic and obvious point.

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