fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3037 ]

[ SECRET POST #3037 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3037 ⌋

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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I can imagine the kind of comments this is going to get, so here's a quick refresher on ableism.

The assumption that non-disabled are the norm is one of the foundations of ableism. So the argument "but not all people who X [obsess, hallucinate, whatever] are disabled so prejudice against that isn't ableist" is false and missing the point.

If something is a feature of a disability, discrimination or prejudice against it is ableist, because amongst the people you'll be discriminating against are all the disabled people who have that feature of their disability. And frequently you'll have no idea who is disabled - again, the assumption that non-disabled are the norm is one of the foundations of ableism. (Example from RL - people with cerebral palsy being thrown out of bars or denied access to public transport because it's assumed their slurred speech and/or their movements mean they are drunk.)

I'm sorry but I think this is the point where I have to get off the bus.

Me too.

So - and I'm sincerely just trying to follow the line of your argument and the examples you gave here - it's ableist for a bartender to cut off a customer who he believes has had too much to drink?

People working with the public are supposed to have some disability awareness training. It's not that difficult to tell someone has CP if you have the faintest idea about it.

What? No. Not in the US they aren't. I worked retail/customer service for years in various places and I never had anything of the sort.

Then those companies are liable to end up getting sued for discrimination because their employees won't understand the ADA.

Where do you live? Because I have lived in three states and I have literally never heard of any kind of business that does "disability awareness training" or whatever. The most I've ever been told is that if someone asks for an accommodation (ie to be seated near the door so they don't have to walk far), we're supposed to provide it for them without question.

Might I direct you to the actal Americans with Disabilities Act, which says (emphasis mine): It shall be discriminatory to exclude or otherwise deny equal goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, accommodations, or other opportunities to an individual or entity because of the known disability of an individual with whom the individual or entity is known to have a relationship or association.

Assuming Slurry McSpeech is drunk and refusing to serve him doesn't get into ADA issues until Slurry makes his disability known.

And I didn't go through it with a fine-tooth comb, but I saw no "you must train your employees to recognize a rainbow of disabilities."

Edited 2015-04-28 23:40 (UTC)

Re: NAYRT

(Anonymous) - 2015-04-29 00:45 (UTC) - Expand

Re: NAYRT

lb_lee - 2015-04-29 16:45 (UTC) - Expand

I've worked jobs in healthcare related occupations that involved dealing with the public and never had any training like that either.

So then the line of the argument would be that it's acceptable to do something like cut off a drunk customer as long as you're aware of and feel competent in distinguishing the behavior from something that's a result of a disability?

That gets into ADA territory - the customer has to tell the bartender that they have a disability that is making them appear drunk, and then the bartender can serve them. It's not something the bartender has to guess.

OK, but that doesn't really seem to fit well with the understanding of ableism that the starter of this thread is advancing

Well, that's what the ADA is meant to do - give people who are being treated in an ableist way some recourse. Ideally, people would recognise the difference between CP and drunk but in real life most people don't meet a lot of people with CP and do meet a lot of drunks, so ableist assumptions are made. I suppose the realistic version would be for people not to assume either way but to observe/inquire further.

Re: about ableism

(Anonymous) - 2015-04-29 02:53 (UTC) - Expand

some blogs about ableism for people way behind 101.

http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/11/19/what-is-ableism-five-things-about-ableism-you-should-know/
http://facesoffibro.blogspot.co.uk/2009/05/disability-101-disability-ableism-and.html
https://twitter.com/EverydayAbleism
http://www.everydayableism.co.uk/archive
http://ahotbath.co.uk/
https://phdisabled.wordpress.com/

I would argue that I'm entirely justified in being prejudiced against someone who screams expletives at me, regardless of their reasons for doing so. I'm aware that there are many, many mental disabilities that can cause emotional issues that can result in inappropriate outbursts, but I don't think I'm wrong for disliking people for screaming at me.

+ a million

if that's ableism, I suppose I have to resign myself to being ableist

This.

Sorry, but if someone's behaving in an aggressive way towards me, my first instinct is not going to be to ask them whether their behavior is due to a mental health condition, it's going to be to get away from a threatening situation regardless of the reasons behind it. In that moment, I am completely going to judge someone based on the behavior alone and I make absolutely no apology for that.

The assumption that non-disabled are the norm

That's because they kind of fucking *are*.

I have a hearing loss. I knew exactly ZERO other hearing impaired children or teenagers growing up, and even today, I know no-one in the Deaf/HOH community.

+1 and thank you

I'm not about to go and be a raging shitlord at anyone because they have a medical condition that means they can't walk, hear, see, play sports, control tics, so on and so forth. but this idea that there's no such thing as a baseline normal expectation for a human being is getting out of control.

I had a course in English literature at Uni where we had a text about "queercripped" readings of classic texts. One of the examples was Snow White: The author basically said the fact that the queen wished for a little girl with certain aesthetically pleasing physical traits instead of wishing for a disabled and some-sort-of-queer child was an example of ableism.
I couldn't take anything in that text seriously after that part.

I am glad someone said this.

I wear glasses, and yes, I have known a fair few people who also have vision problems, including the whole of my immediate family. I still have bad eyesight though and know that having 20/20 vision is better. I don't get upset if someone calls bad vision bad, I only expect they won't insult me for wearing glasses.

The problem with that is it gets into absurd territory where there can't reasonably be any expectations for social behavior or courtesy because so many things can be the symptom of a disability. Like, you literally can't be upset with someone for being a raging asshole because some symptoms of autism can come across as if the person's being a raging asshole. And then you get into this territory where people find it perfectly acceptable to use their disability as an excuse to treat other people like crap.

There has to be a way to balance accepting and respecting people with disabilities and having standards for conduct.

I can't agree with this. I don't think it should be about "this is something done by disabled people, so lay off" but instead "this isn't hurting anyone so stop treating it as some kind of moral failing". And if whatever "it" is really is hurting someone, either the person doing it or other people, then it needs to be acknowledged as a problem. The issue is that people have a hard time separating acknowledging the problem and treating the person with the problem as less of a person because of it. That's what needs to stop.

Thank you.
I'm diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder, but this sentiment I've seen popping up such as "people who don't like X character are ABLEIST, because X displays traits of neurodivergence such as lack of empathy and violent tendencies", this is making me really uncomfortable. And I'm not making up that particular example.

I know I act "weird" by "normal human behaviour" standards. I stim, pace around a lot, get lost in though, probably gesture at empty air if I'm thinking through a possible conversation I might have to have in the future, my facial expressions probably don't correlate with anything that's really going on at the moment half the time. I can't really stop doing all that.

But if something I did was actually harming other people, if I became violent or rude or started screaming slurs and insults at people or such, then that would be wrong regardless of what my neurotype is. Claiming it's okay and getting upset about it is "ableist" is infantilizing. Plus it'd be kind of the same thing as when some kid bullies other kids, and when the bully's parents are informed, they're just like "oh he's just a kid he doesn't understand what he's doing" or "LOL boys will be boys".

When I was in elementary school, the school had one "special needs" class for basically all the disabled kids in the whole town between ages six to sixteen or so. I wasn't there (not diagnosed at the time), although some people I knew were. I think the way they were handled was kind of a mess. We got this whole "you have to be accepting, if they do something weird it's because they don't understand" coddlespeech from teachers. But let me tell you, when you're a tiny eight-year-old minding your own business, standing on a fairly high snowstack during recess, and this huge fifteen-year-old guy twice your size approaches and then randomly pushes you off the snowstack for no known reason, then wanders off smiling, that is kind of really terrifying. I don't think I had to be ableist in order to be scared of that guy afterwards.

Besides, the younger kids in the "special needs" class were terrified of the older ones, too (at least the kids I knew were). Which probably has relatively little to do with disability and absolutely everything to do with the fact that they shoved kids with about a decade of age difference into the exact same class, and bigger kids tend to bully younger ones, and the school had an atmosphere of not giving a damn about bullying.

But the whole "oh waah waah they're disabled they don't UNDERSTAND what they're doing" attitude was... icky. And, in retrospect, dehumanizing. Heck, I'm half certain I remember teachers actually saying that stuff IN FRONT OF the "special needs" (ugh I hate that phrase) students. Also counterproductive, because it would contribute to them internalizing the idea that it's okay for them to bully and be inconsiderate, nothing more is even expected of them.

Actually I just really hate that school and its attitudes towards everything as a whole. Glad they're tearing down the building soon. Yes I know it's not the building, it's the people running the place, but I take what I can get.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #3037 ]

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