[ SECRET POST #3228 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3228 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 018 secrets from Secret Submission Post #461.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: Arguments or criticisms you hate

[(Anonymous)]

I realize I'm preaching to the choir here, but people defending offensive shit with "freedom of speech". Like hey, I don't want to BAN racist Halloween costumes or misogynistic jokes. But I will shit all over them, and loudly. (and possibly literally in the case of the Halloween costume). And guess what, I have the freedom of speech to do that, too!

Re: Arguments or criticisms you hate

[(Anonymous)]

I think the situation is complicated, but certainly, the way the argument is commonly used is dumb as fuck

Re: Arguments or criticisms you hate

[(Anonymous)]

What's complicated about it? The point is that you do have freedom of speech, but you don't have the freedom not to be criticized if you offend people. The people who get offended have freedom of speech, too.

Re: Arguments or criticisms you hate

[(Anonymous)]

I'm tired so I can't really get into it as fully as I'd like. But basically what I'm saying - I think that the concept of freedom of speech is broader than just government restrictions on speech. I think that the importance of freedom of speech in a democracy is greater fundamental. I think that social approbation can at a certain point become a real block on freedom of speech. I think that, when you talk about the political importance of freedom of speech, it comes from the ability to have a discussion, and that implies that people are going to listen. I think that, while everyone has a legal right to dismiss any view as vituperatively as you like, that has to be balanced against maintaining the possibility of discourse. I think it's easy to say that you don't have to accept offensive views, but I think when you get down to cases it often becomes difficult to distinguish between things that are offensive and things that you just disagree with. I think it's very difficult to draw a bright line from the top-down between those things & insufficient attention is paid to that difficulty.

And so basically what I'm saying is that there is an aspect of freedom of speech which has to do with the way that we act and talk, not just with the role of the government. There is something that we owe as citizens in regards to discourse. Now of course this doesn't apply to dumbass jokes or stupid fucking Halloween costumes - of course the people arguing from free speech in that regard are jackasses, and there are many more misuses of the argument. But like I say. It's complicated.

Re: Arguments or criticisms you hate

[(Anonymous)]

Uh, I don't think you have the right to literally shit on someone...

But I agree otherwise. I hate it when people respond to criticism with "but I have freedom of speech!" Yeah, so does the other person, and they're exercising their rights, not taking away yours.

Re: Arguments or criticisms you hate

[(Anonymous)]

The literal shitting was a joke. :-) Rest assured.

Re: Arguments or criticisms you hate

[philstar22]

I just hate "freedom of speech" arguments in general that aren't about government actions. People don't understand what freedom of speech really means. The government can't, generally, with some exceptions, stop you from saying things. Private entities certainly can. And individual people can too.

Re: Arguments or criticisms you hate

[sarillia]

To be fair, some people believe in a universal right to freedom of speech that should ethically be guaranteed to everyone. Which is a stance others can disagree with but it seems pretty disingenuous when people refuse to acknowledge that they do in fact know what the legal right to free speech is and isn't and that's just not what they're talking about.

Re: Arguments or criticisms you hate

[philstar22]

Okay, maybe. Most of the time I hear that phrase thrown about by people who really don't know what it means, though.

Re: Arguments or criticisms you hate

[(Anonymous)]

I talked about this more above, but I don't agree. The First Amendment is a law that protects free speech from one source of potential interference. But I don't think that's the whole of freedom of speech in a democratic republic - I don't think it can't be.

I don't believe in a universal freedom to say anything at any time. But I think that public social pressure can be a means of shutting views out of the public discourse in the same way that governmental action is, and it's exceptionally difficult to determine precisely what views should be shut out of public discourse and how you determine the standards for that.

Re: Arguments or criticisms you hate

[philstar22]

I actually don't disagree with you, although I think that we should maybe coin another term for that type of restricting of speech since "freedom of Speech" is generally the term for the type talked about in the Constitution which is just about government action. But people really do talk about legal freedom of speech as if it applies to private speech and threaten suing people when people criticize their arguments. And that is a complete misunderstanding of the law.

Re: Arguments or criticisms you hate

[(Anonymous)]

Oh sure you're right enough there. I just think that the converse is also true & people use the legal argument in such a way as to dismiss the political one.

Re: Arguments or criticisms you hate

[philstar22]

Good point. I guess just as an almost lawyer I tend to be more sensitive to the former.

Re: Arguments or criticisms you hate

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, but that shitting all over things leads to situations like thhat Hispanic kid being told by his school that dressing up as a Mariachi was racist against his own people and he couldn't do it.

As soon as you give one reasonable person licence to start taking people down assholes on power trips start doing it too. I;m not sure what the answer to that is, but it isn't "one side needs to shut up because I have the god given right to shit on them"