[ SECRET POST #3292 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3292 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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06. [SPOILERS for Hunger Games]





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07. [SPOILERS for The Force Awakens]





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08. [SPOILERS for The Force Awakens]





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09. [WARNING for eating disorders]





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10. [WARNING for rape]





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11. [WARNING for rape]







































Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #470.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

04. https://41.media.tumblr.com/3d56a10faf60ea3c21a10e4220e9b5a3/tumblr_o05bh3cKQj1sivacmo1_540.png

[feotakahari]

On the one hand, I think some settings lend themselves naturally to redemption. It feels a little silly to me when My Little Pony fans bitch about fics that redeem villains--what else do you expect from a show this idealistic? But on the other hand, fandom in general is pretty bad about making excuses for why villains just couldn't help themselves. I haven't seen many fics where the villain takes full responsibility for his or her actions.

[(Anonymous)]

Bingo: taking full responsibility for one's actions is what redemption is all about, and from my standpoint, there's no redemption without it. Otherwise, you're just making excuses for the character.

Demonstrating that he didn't really commit the bad action isn't redeeming him, it's exonerating him.

Explaining why his actions weren't wrong isn't redeeming him either; it's vindicating or justifying him.

Demonstrating that he acted under extreme provocation or duress is offering extenuating circumstances.

Showing that other characters did things that are equally bad, if not worse, is just muddying the waters, especially if it involves a lot of implausible back-story, or character-bashing, or both.

Making him an object of pity by exploring the past sufferings that have shaped his character may be appropriate under the circumstances, but it isn’t redemption.

It’s not that these things have no place in a redemption fic, but redeeming a character involves acknowledging that they've acted wrongly and sometimes vilely, and then having them earn either the trust and regard of those around them, or else some measure of self-respect and integrity on their own terms. It’s not invariably necessary for the character to frame the matter to himself in this way—in fact, it’s often better if he doesn’t--but the author should.

[(Anonymous)]

I also think there's some difference between villains who are clearly sympathetic/tragic or have sympathetic qualities (Winter Soldier) and characters where redemption is never discussed as a possibility and are clearly irredeemable (Sauron, Hannibal, the Joker).

The anti-woobification people don't always draw distinctions between these two, and the difference is important.

[(Anonymous)]

I really like redemption arcs. I just hate the, what do they call them? Heel-turn characters who keep flipflopping between good and evil- so tiring and annoying.

[(Anonymous)]

I think that's called Heel-Face Revolving Door.

[(Anonymous)]

Riiiight. I hate that.

[(Anonymous)]

I feel like that trope would be useful for a character you're supposed to LOATHE.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm fine with morally ambiguous and sympathetic villains. The problem, for me, is when you minimize or justify the moral wrongness of what the characters have done. That's the line that I want to maintain, and the tricky thing to do - to keep in mind that, even if characters are ambiguous and sympathetic, it does not lessen the villainous things they do. And that moral judgment is, I think, where a lot of people seem to veer off the reservation.

[a_potato]

That's an excellent point.

I think the mistake people make is in linking goodness to strict moral purity and badness to strict moral impurity. Good people do immoral things, and bad people do moral things, and I think you really have to recognize and believe that in order to do well when it comes to writing a sympathetic villain.

[(Anonymous)]

I feel like it's stupid when people expect you to start every sentence with "So and so is so evil and problematic but..." If you like a villain, you know they're a villain. You don't need to repeat it. It makes conversations so clunky.

[philstar22]

Redemption takes work. I'm all for redemption in fics, but most of the time what you get isn't really redemption but is "they weren't actually evil and all the horrible things they did were totally justified" or "lets ignore all the bad things they did and have all the other characters forget about them and any character who doesn't is the real evil one."

That being said, I also agree that some people take it too far the other way. My fandom has had bouts of people who insist you have to say that a character is evil every other sentence and you can't talk about their good qualities or enjoy them at all.

[kallanda_lee]

I absolutely agree, though I think the backlash IS because of the woobification trend. I'm all for realistic redemption arcs, but so much of it is just clearly because a fan loves a villain, not because it's good storytelling.

[philstar22]

True. I just find it weird in my fandom because I've seen so little woobification of the character in question. Like maybe one or two examples, but most people acknowledge he's an evil, horrible person. But some people insist that if you talk about positive traits at all it is woobification.

[a_potato]

All sentiment rides on a pendulum.

[elaminator]

I definitely don't mind redemption arcs... If done right, and realistically. Some characters are more likely to get an arc like that then others, though. (For instance, if anyone wrote Hannibal a redemption arc I'd laugh in their face. That man doesn't see what he's doing wrong, and if he did he still wouldn't care about redemption. But as long as it works for the character and their story, it's good.)

I think some redemption arcs come off as shallow because the consequences of the characters actions aren't explored enough, or the characters don't own up to what they did. In that case, I'd rather they stay a villain.

[philstar22]

Yup. Hannibal redemption fics are not going to be in-character. And I read a Sauron redemption fic once and it was honestly scary. Now, I'm currently reading a WIP never went evil in the first place Mairon fic that seems to work so far. But a redemption fic? The idea is a little terrifying.

[(Anonymous)]

There are roughly three types of villains like this:

1) The villain is completely unsympathetic, with no positive or even morally gray qualities, and the possibility of redeeming them is never seriously discussed in canon.

2) The possibility of redeeming the villain is discussed, and the villain receives some narrative sympathy, but isn't redeemed in canon.

3) The villain is successfully redeemed.

[(Anonymous)]

It's not just redeeming villains or looking at them sympathetically. I'm seeing fans getting nasty toward people who write about or discuss villains at all. Like a certain subset of the MCU fandom which receives some really *vicious* harassment from other fans for finding the well written villains (played by good actors) in any way intriguing enough to write stories about them...doing what they do... which is being absolutely horrible people and attacking and torturing the heroes... and the authors of these fics are being called Nazi sympathizers for writing stories about the Nazi sympathizing characters canon gave us to use as villains. People are like “ewww, you know they're Nazis, right?” Like they think you didn't understand that, and if some concern troll just explained it, then you'd wake up and stop admiring Nazis and join them in their fluffy bunny world where no one ever contemplates why bad people do bad things. Of course, their central argument, their belief that you read and write this fic because you actually admire Nazis, is complete BS. The actors who play them onscreen aren't really Nazis, they're playing a role to make the story more interesting, writers who write the villains are doing the same thing.

Cap fought Nazis, if the Nazis were faceless mooks who were never any real threat, the story wouldn't be very interesting, would it. If the villain of a story ISN'T someone you find yourself wanting to know more about, then that's bad writing.

[(Anonymous)]

I've seen MCU fandom in particular get pretty nasty about this - I'm thinking of Stand With Ward/Down With Ward, and the backlash against fans writing about HYDRA-affiliated characters.

[(Anonymous)]

Speaking as a fan who agrees with OP, I do think there's a little more sensitivity required if you're working with nazi or nazi-affiliated characters because nazis were and are real and murdered millions of real people. My own family history has been messed up by nazis, and it's really uncomfortable when I see people with Red Skull merch or trying to argue that Hydra doesn't count because even though they have nazi history and still push a lot of nazi ideas, they don't label themselves that way anymore. I do think showing that nazis and nazi affiliated characters in fiction are people is important because real life nazis and nazi affiliated folks were people too. They would do things like be nice to their spouses and pet dogs and all that. They probably thought they were justified and protecting certain "vulnerable" groups in what they did. But ultimately the level of atrocity nazis commit both individually and ideologically en masse leaves a very specific stain IMO. I've seen real life former neo nazis voice regret for their past choices and make very thoughtful commentary about why what they did was horrible and what they need to do going forward. Those real former neo nazis are doing the right thing trying to be stellar going forward, but I would never trust them and they have no room for error anymore. I just wish them success in being better people.

So basically, while I don't exactly disagree I do think when you deal with stuff that has real life ties on as massive a scale as nazism that's really dangerous territory and an extra level of awareness is necessary.

[(Anonymous)]

Preach it.

Of course, I'm a filthy, filthy whore for redemption stories, so I'm not sure what my support is worth... on the other hand, I don't care for stories done lazily. My sweet little evildoer has to work their ass off for or on the side of good (and in a believable way), or else it doesn't work.

[(Anonymous)]

There's a difference between being an apologist and exploring a character's motives and internal logic while taking care not to justify them.

[(Anonymous)]

For people who use the word "apologist," exploring a character's motives and internal logic is justifying them.

[caterfree10]

As someone who often gravitates toward villains, I completely hear you OP.

Tho, I kind of get the impression you and I might not get along bc I'm not sure if my standards in redemption stories are the same. :s (probably worse standards on my side. always seem to be on the trash side of things, alas ~_~)