fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3292 ]

[ SECRET POST #3292 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3292 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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06. [SPOILERS for Hunger Games]

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07. [SPOILERS for The Force Awakens]

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08. [SPOILERS for The Force Awakens]

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09. [WARNING for eating disorders]

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10. [WARNING for rape]

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11. [WARNING for rape]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #470.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean other people aren't allowed to like it, duh. Fiction is fantasy is not reality and with the arrival of AO3, there's now a safe and secure place to post the NSFW stuff so the main 1990's fear of being C&D'ed or doxxed is safely swept away.

If that thing others like is harmless, I completely agree. If, on the other hand, what other people like, if shared publicly, has the capacity to influence people's perspectives on certain major issues in negative and potentially harmful ways, that's where what other people like becomes an issue.

If one enjoys writing and then publicly sharing overtly racist fiction, that's not a good thing. And I don't mean fiction about race, but fiction that depicts an entire race/ethnicity in inaccurate and hateful or demeaning ways.

If one enjoys writing and then publicly sharing overtly homophobic fiction, that's not a good thing.

If one enjoys writing and then publicly sharing fiction that clearly depicts mentally ill people as being, as a group, probably unhinged and dangerous, that's not a good thing.

And if one enjoys writing and then publicly sharing fiction that overtly and deliberately depicts rape as being erotic and/or romantic, that's not a good thing.

I could give a lot more examples, but since I highly doubt either one of us is going to change the other's mind, I'd rather not waste my time.

The thing is, I don't want to shame people, and I don't shame people (unless you consider expressing a perfectly valid opinion in an anonymous public forum, as I am doing now, to be "shaming" in which case I have nothing whatsoever to say to you). I also don't want to make it illegal for people to write eroticized rape. But I'm not okay with people then publishing or publicly sharing those writings, and I feel no need to pretend I am okay with it.

If, on the other hand, what other people like, if shared publicly, has the capacity to influence people's perspectives on certain major issues in negative and potentially harmful ways, that's where what other people like becomes an issue.

The word you're looking for is "crimethink".

Nope, but nice try though. Just keep working on your reading comprehension; you'll be able to grasp semi complex written concepts eventually.

I also don't want to make it illegal for people to write eroticized rape. But I'm not okay with people then publishing or publicly sharing those writings, and I feel no need to pretend I am okay with it.

So you're saying that people can only write eroticized rape in drawerfic? I believe that would be called "mind policing".

I am a rape survivor. I write rape fantasy because it helps me deal with that. It puts me back in control of a situation where I had none.

To say that I shouldn't share that publicly with other survivors who may feel the same way may be your opinion, but censoring others' public works is. (Which is what you're saying because even though you've said you don't want to make it illegal, you're saying you're going to harass those who do.)

You don't have to be okay with it. You can express your opinion if you want. But trying to insist that people can't write about what they've gone through in a way that reframes it is hurtful.

I am a rape survivor. I write rape fantasy because it helps me deal with that.

If you felt the need to writer hateful mischaracterizations of people of color in order to deal with some past trauma you had experienced, we would not be having this conversation. You and I would both recognize (presuming that you are a decent person) that one individual's need to cope (however valid) does not outweigh the production of potentially toxic ideology throughout an entire community.

But trying to insist that people can't write about what they've gone through in a way that reframes it is hurtful.

I am not trying to insist people can't write it, and if you read my comments again you will realize that. But I don't agree that people who write it are in the right to then post it publicly on a generalized forum. I would, however, be open to the possibility of having forums specifically for stories that contain such content.

Sorry, sorry, I just had to come back from one more minute, because it's really just too good to pass up:

So you're saying that people can only write eroticized rape in drawerfic? I believe that would be called "mind policing".

No. No, no. Um, ha. No. "Mind policing" would be if I wanted to pass a law that made it illegal for people to think thoughts about eroticized rape. Do I want to do that? No, I don't want to do that. Do I want to pass a law that would make it illegal for people to write down their thoughts about eroticized rape and make them into a story that eroticized rape? No, I don't want to do that. Do I want to pass a law that would make it illegal for people to share their story, which eroticizes rape, and which they wrote from their thoughts about eroticized rape? No, I don't want to do that.

I'm just don't like the fact that people do publish or publicly post stories which contain that kind of content. I don't like it. Do I expect it to stop because I don't like it? No. Should other people expect me to start liking it? No. Expressing my dislike, and discussing the reasons for my dislike accomplishes one very basic thing: It keeps my voice - my views and opinions - in the discussion. Which is valuable, well, pretty much everywhere, but particularly in environments like fandom, which are pretty much run by public opinion.

This is some pretty basic stuff, but the way people are reacting here makes it seem like it needs to be said: Keeping voices with differing opinions in a discussion is vital. Otherwise, you don't have a discussion. Which means you don't have a democratic process. You have a hivemind. Which, now that I think of it, brings us right back to the 1984 terminology we all so love to use as shorthand.

if shared publicly, has the capacity to influence people's perspectives on certain major issues in negative and potentially harmful ways,

And that's the crux of it nonny. You can't protect people from ideas that might influence them. You have to recognize that they're adults and can come to the right conclusion even when exposed to certain ideas. Despite books being sold that are blatantly white-supremacist, anti-women, anti-gay, etc, we have moved forward and support for those ideas are in decline.

Condescendingly protecting people from potentially harmful ideas is not the way to progress. You're just a misanthrope masquerading as benevolent. You have no faith in other humans, and expect them to be the worst they could possibly be.

Edited 2016-01-09 16:48 (UTC)

You have to recognize that they're adults and can come to the right conclusion even when exposed to certain ideas.

And you would be arguing the same thing if what we were talking about was fanfic that was negatively glaringly mischaracterizing people of color? Or gay people? Or mentally ill people? You would still be sitting here arguing that to criticize such fanfic is "policing" or is "shaming"?

Please. Your logic here is painfully flawed, to the point where I don't even know where to start.

Interesting, also, that no one has responded to the point I made about how this issue is perceived by people outside of fandom. That is, outside of the warpey fun-house echo chamber environment that fandom sometimes creates on certain issues like this one. Seriously, try running it past one of your (kind, open-minded, entirely non-misanthropic) friends some time. Ask them whether a story in which one character they like rapes another character they like and it's supposed to be hot, is a story they think it's cool for people to be sharing around and praising.

See what they think.

Straw-man much? I support your right to criticize fic tropes, or even individual fics. What I do not support are actions aimed to stop people from publishing/sharing said fics. You have blatantly said that you are against people sharing said fics.

And you would be arguing the same thing if what we were talking about was fanfic that was negatively glaringly mischaracterizing people of color? Or gay people? Or mentally ill people?

I support the right of people to publish anything they want. Yes, that includes ones that mischaracterize groups I belong to. If someone wants to write bi/pan people as liars or sex-crazy, that doesn't make me happy but I believe they have a right to share that work if they wish. I've read books that reveled in and celebrated murdering people like me.

Seriously, try running it past one of your (kind, open-minded, entirely non-misanthropic) friends some time. Ask them whether a story in which one character they like rapes another character they like and it's supposed to be hot, is a story they think it's cool for people to be sharing around and praising.

Most of my friends are as heavily anti-censorship as I am, and some are even more so. I don't know why you think I have a bevy of friends that would be upset at people praising an unrealistic erotica story.

Straw-man much?

Lol, project much?

You're misconstruing my argument, and you're doing it so blatantly I find it hard to believe you're not doing it on purpose. Nowhere in any of my numerous comments have I said I want to deny people the right to publish. I've merely said I take issue with the fact that they do. Which is to say, I. Don't. Like. It. I. Wish. They. Wouldn't.

If you don't see the difference there you have little grasp of nuance - which is a pity because nuance can be a vital part of debate.

Most of my friends are as heavily anti-censorship as I am, and some are even more so.

No. I don't mean you should ask them if it has the right to be published. I mean, ask them whether they think it's cool, good, a positive thing? Do they think it's constructive or even neutral, as a piece of work that has entered our culture and is contributing its voice to our culture?

So ~~monkey sees, monkey does~~ person reads, person endorses and emulates? Without thinking at all about anything?

And here I was, believing human beings were better than that. Silly me.

person reads, person endorses and emulates? Without thinking at all about anything?

Nothing happens in an echo chamber. But you're very foolish indeed if you think that the transition from "environmental element" to "internalized element" happens that quickly or in ways that are so clear cut. Almost as foolish as you are if you believe it doesn't happen at all. In short: it's not about people "drinking the Kool Aid," it's about what's in the water.

We patently accept all of this when it comes to things like racial narratives or LGBT narratives. We don't want to see said groups and the important issues surrounding them mischaracterized, for a number of reasons. One of the main reasons being that we're wary of such mischaracterization contributing to the perpetuation of a preexisting and harmful cultural narrative or viewpoint about said groups.

After thinking about this for a while... I just can't understand how you can compare unrealistic erotic fantasies and realistic hate-speech supporting fiction, which is closer to propaganda than to anything else.

unrealistic erotic fantasies

So...you're claiming that rape is not a common, everyday occurrence? Every bit as "realistic" and prevalent as hate speech? or that there's nothing propaganda-ish about the eroticization/romanticisation of power-imbalanced, often dubiously consensual sex, which crops up so nauseatingly frequently, in our culture?

After thinking about this for a few seconds, it's not worth the effort I've already put into this comment, let alone any more.

(I'm probably wasting my time, because you keep using straw-men and don't even seem to want to consider that things are more nuanced than the black and white pov you obviously have, but I'm bored so what the hell)

I'm not saying rape isn't common.
I'm saying the way it's written in fiction (specially in fanfiction) most of the time is not only unrealistic, but (and this is the important part) it's not written with an intention to make it realistic.

That doesn't make it perfectly good, but doesn't make it completely bad either. The how (how it's portrayed, how it's consumed, how people react to it) matters far more than anything, but most of that depends on each person and any generalization is pure nonsense.

On the other hand, all hateful miss-characterizations are done on purpose to send a (hateful and twisted, but with the pretension of being realistic) message, which is something completely different.

it's not written with an intention to make it realistic.

And if people want to take the effort to articulate that, in some detail, at the start of their fic, that would go at least a little bit of the way towards ameliorating the issue. Because when you play with something toxic in public, and encourage others to join in, the least you can do is make the effort to thoroughly remind people of what it is and what it isn't. People will think they don't need this. But as a culture we do need it, because as a culture we are very evidently susceptible to these concepts.

As I said before: it's not about people "drinking the Kool Aid," it's about what's in the water.

all hateful miss-characterizations are done on purpose

This is no longer particularly relevant to the topic being discussed, but it must be said that this is one hell of a generalization. Do you really believe that all racist people know they're racist and are just pretending to believe racist things about others? If only it were so simple. Some hateful mischaracterizations are done on purpose. Some are done because the writer truly believes that's the way the people they're writing about are. Some are done because the writer wants to believe that's the way the people they're writing about are, because the simplicity of it feels good to them and they're afraid of the complication of seeing past the fantasy they hold of a simple world where some are plainly superior to others. And so on and so forth.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #3292 ]

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