fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3292 ]

[ SECRET POST #3292 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3292 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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06. [SPOILERS for Hunger Games]

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07. [SPOILERS for The Force Awakens]

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08. [SPOILERS for The Force Awakens]

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09. [WARNING for eating disorders]

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10. [WARNING for rape]

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11. [WARNING for rape]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #470.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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I enjoyed your secret and feel very similarly, OP. And don't worry, there are a lot of people out there who understand exactly where you're coming from. Basically any time I talk to my friends who aren't heavily into fandom about some of fandom's more disturbing tropes (romanticized rape, etc.) every single one of them basically responds the same way: "Wait, people are being praised for writing that and posting it on a public forum? Wow, that's messed up." And my friends aren't conservative, nor are they overly young or naive. The way fandom, as a general whole, seems to lean on this issue at the moment is just really, really biased and reactionary.

Back in 1996 we had fanfic writers who would actively shame other fanfic writers for writing smut at all. Now we have this. *shrugs*

Hi, OP! You should get a tumblr. I'm sure you'll feel at home with the so many people there who believe the right thing to do is harassing and doxxing people for writing/drawing something that isn't perfectly PC and harmless.

Keep enjoying your inability of distinguish reality and fiction if that's what make you happy!

Holy overreaction, batman. People who don't like kink and tropes must want to doxx and unable to distinguish fantasy from reality? Or maybe they just think it's skeevy and *are allowed to think that*.

One rule for you, eh?

+1000000

Except that old "actively shame writers" became "harassing and doxxing" and the excuse is "BECAUSE IT'S BAD (IN RL)" with no thought that, hey, maybe other people are perfectly capable of distinguishing fiction and reality and writing something doesn't mean endorsement.

If you don't like something, just move on instead of "actively shaming" others.

Wow, what's up with you? Where are you even getting this "actively shaming" thing. You keep putting it in air quotes, like it's something someone's said, and I'm pretty much the only one whose comments you're addressing, but guess what? I haven't said that! I did say something about how there used to be some jerks back in 1996 who would shame writers for even writing smut at all. And that the pendulum has now swung so far the other way that we're no better than when it was on the other side. That's about it though.

I'm against "active shaming," in case that still wasn't clear.

Congratulations on your massive overreaction, though. It really helped your argument.

You find it incomprehensible that more than one person in all of fandom is not okay with romanticized and eroticized depictions of rape? You need to get some serious perspective, asap.

No at all, but if that person insist that actively shaming other is a good thing... well, I'm not going to agree with them. YKINMKATO is better, no shaming needed.

I am the person you were responding to, and nowhere did I claim (let alone "insist") that actively shaming others was a good thing. In fact, my comment basically implied it was a bad thing, which I will now confirm: as far as I'm concerned, actively shaming others is almost never a beneficial or constructive course of action, and I don't believe it is the right course of action in this case.

Now if you consider expressing one's opinions, civilly, in either ones own space or a public forum, to be "actively shaming" then I really can't help you there, because we clearly have very different definitions of the term.

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean other people aren't allowed to like it, duh. Fiction is fantasy is not reality and with the arrival of AO3, there's now a safe and secure place to post the NSFW stuff so the main 1990's fear of being C&D'ed or doxxed is safely swept away.

If that thing others like is harmless, I completely agree. If, on the other hand, what other people like, if shared publicly, has the capacity to influence people's perspectives on certain major issues in negative and potentially harmful ways, that's where what other people like becomes an issue.

If one enjoys writing and then publicly sharing overtly racist fiction, that's not a good thing. And I don't mean fiction about race, but fiction that depicts an entire race/ethnicity in inaccurate and hateful or demeaning ways.

If one enjoys writing and then publicly sharing overtly homophobic fiction, that's not a good thing.

If one enjoys writing and then publicly sharing fiction that clearly depicts mentally ill people as being, as a group, probably unhinged and dangerous, that's not a good thing.

And if one enjoys writing and then publicly sharing fiction that overtly and deliberately depicts rape as being erotic and/or romantic, that's not a good thing.

I could give a lot more examples, but since I highly doubt either one of us is going to change the other's mind, I'd rather not waste my time.

The thing is, I don't want to shame people, and I don't shame people (unless you consider expressing a perfectly valid opinion in an anonymous public forum, as I am doing now, to be "shaming" in which case I have nothing whatsoever to say to you). I also don't want to make it illegal for people to write eroticized rape. But I'm not okay with people then publishing or publicly sharing those writings, and I feel no need to pretend I am okay with it.

If, on the other hand, what other people like, if shared publicly, has the capacity to influence people's perspectives on certain major issues in negative and potentially harmful ways, that's where what other people like becomes an issue.

The word you're looking for is "crimethink".

Nope, but nice try though. Just keep working on your reading comprehension; you'll be able to grasp semi complex written concepts eventually.

I also don't want to make it illegal for people to write eroticized rape. But I'm not okay with people then publishing or publicly sharing those writings, and I feel no need to pretend I am okay with it.

So you're saying that people can only write eroticized rape in drawerfic? I believe that would be called "mind policing".

I am a rape survivor. I write rape fantasy because it helps me deal with that. It puts me back in control of a situation where I had none.

To say that I shouldn't share that publicly with other survivors who may feel the same way may be your opinion, but censoring others' public works is. (Which is what you're saying because even though you've said you don't want to make it illegal, you're saying you're going to harass those who do.)

You don't have to be okay with it. You can express your opinion if you want. But trying to insist that people can't write about what they've gone through in a way that reframes it is hurtful.

I am a rape survivor. I write rape fantasy because it helps me deal with that.

If you felt the need to writer hateful mischaracterizations of people of color in order to deal with some past trauma you had experienced, we would not be having this conversation. You and I would both recognize (presuming that you are a decent person) that one individual's need to cope (however valid) does not outweigh the production of potentially toxic ideology throughout an entire community.

But trying to insist that people can't write about what they've gone through in a way that reframes it is hurtful.

I am not trying to insist people can't write it, and if you read my comments again you will realize that. But I don't agree that people who write it are in the right to then post it publicly on a generalized forum. I would, however, be open to the possibility of having forums specifically for stories that contain such content.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2016-01-10 03:27 (UTC) - Expand

if shared publicly, has the capacity to influence people's perspectives on certain major issues in negative and potentially harmful ways,

And that's the crux of it nonny. You can't protect people from ideas that might influence them. You have to recognize that they're adults and can come to the right conclusion even when exposed to certain ideas. Despite books being sold that are blatantly white-supremacist, anti-women, anti-gay, etc, we have moved forward and support for those ideas are in decline.

Condescendingly protecting people from potentially harmful ideas is not the way to progress. You're just a misanthrope masquerading as benevolent. You have no faith in other humans, and expect them to be the worst they could possibly be.

Edited 2016-01-09 16:48 (UTC)

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(Anonymous) - 2016-01-10 00:24 (UTC) - Expand

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blitzwing - 2016-01-10 00:35 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2016-01-10 02:42 (UTC) - Expand

So ~~monkey sees, monkey does~~ person reads, person endorses and emulates? Without thinking at all about anything?

And here I was, believing human beings were better than that. Silly me.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2016-01-10 00:33 (UTC) - Expand

After thinking about this for a while... I just can't understand how you can compare unrealistic erotic fantasies and realistic hate-speech supporting fiction, which is closer to propaganda than to anything else.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2016-01-10 00:44 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2016-01-10 03:15 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2016-01-10 03:42 (UTC) - Expand

I will note that the shaming of 1996 you are holding so dear also including shaming people promoting slash, femslash, and gender queer characters.

Lol, try again. I'm not holding the smut shaming of 1996 dear. I think it sucked. I'm saying: from one shitty and bizarre extreme to another. *shakes head and walks off*

Your problem is you're calling them 'romanticized rape' Who's going to agree with that?

"Eroticism of pedophillic-traits" porn with small breasted women (Trivia time! Oglaf was so annoyed by this moral crusade, they deliberately made several of their characters small breasted)

"Fetishism of fecal-expulsion areas" Anal sex!

Just go "They like stuff like the romance in Beauty and the Beast" and see how quickly people gasp and condemn them.

Your problem is you're calling them 'romanticized rape' Who's going to agree with that?

No, I believe it's you who has a problem with what I'm calling it. I, on the other hand, have very specifically chosen that term, as it is the term that most accurately describes the subclass of fiction (fan or otherwise) that I take issue with.

Do I take issue with rape that is depicted as a profoundly negative experience and a vile act? No.

Do I take issue with dubcon depicted in an erotic way? Not unless it's actually rape and the person writing it mistook it for dubcon because their grasp of consent is dodgy at best. (e.g. master coerces slave into saying yes.)

I take issue, very specifically, with fiction in which one character (or multiple characters) force sexual acts upon another character, whom they are aware does not want to experience or participate in said sexual acts. And the narrative depicts these events with the deliberate intention of making them appear erotic/arousing or romantic.

"Eroticism of pedophillic-traits" porn with small breasted women

Not an accusation I would make, and not one I agree with. So long as the fic isn't eroticizing statutory rape, I have no issue with it. If an adult character is fetishized for being "childlike" that does squick me out a bit, but I generally consider that a personal squick, nothing more.

"Fetishism of fecal-expulsion areas" Anal sex!

Are you deliberately strawmanning my argument, or are you just this obtuse? Again I repeat: I use the term "eroticized rape" because I mean "eroticized rape." If I meant to include a broader range of tropes, I would use a different term that left room for the inclusion of a broader range of tropes.

Just go "They like stuff like the romance in Beauty and the Beast" and see how quickly people gasp and condemn them.

For the record, many people are borderline-condemnatory of Beauty And The Beast, due to it's creepy romanticization of what essentially amounts to Stockholm Syndrome. However, your use of it as a comparison is so inaccurate as to be laughable. If Beast had raped Belle, while she was still his captive, that would be the gist of the kind of fiction I'm talking about. So yes, good point anon! How about you try asking your friends and family how they would feel if, in Beauty And The Beast, Beast had forced himself on a captive Belle. I bet they'd all be very open to a theatrical re-release of that "harmless" little rewrite.

Romanticized rape could mean loads of things though. That phrase is super vague.

It could mean fantastical things like a/b/o, sex pollen, fuck-or-die like pon farr, amnesia in the middle of sex, kidnapped and raped by aliens or mermaids, etc.

It could mean not getting consent ahead of time like in movies like Secretary or sleep walking sex. Sex acts that will always be dubious even if permission is given ahead of time like drugged sex.

I could write the most brutal, humiliation laden rape scene then write an epilogue at the end saying it was all planned ahead of time. Fully consensual. Does that qualify as romanticized rape?

What if canon contains dubious consent?

This does not mean things like RP shipping, underage stories using fictional characters, and kinks like non-con, cannibalism, heavy pain play, doing things that kill the person in the middle of sex, etc. aren't worthy of discussion.

What is annoying about OP's post isn't that they dislike non-con stories. Plenty of people do. It's that they post comments at the end of fic. It accomplishes nothing and makes you look like an ass (some exceptions like fic failure to tag as non-con). You either a) write your own discussion post where appropriate or b) talk to the moderator.

Otherwise what you are doing is just petty attacks against one person and we end up with things like the Steven Universe fanartist.

Romanticized rape could mean loads of things though.

You're right, there are many, many different ways that eroticized rape can be depicted in fiction. You are also right that there is a lot of grey area, particularly in areas of experimental biology (a/b/o, etc.) In those cases t can be hard to agree upon what's rape and what isn't, because there is no preexisting precedent with which to judge these things.

Outside of those cases, I have to disagree with most of the other examples you have given. Or rather, I don't disagree that they exist somewhere in a grey area. But they aren't of much concern to me, as I take no issue with them. Dubcon? Not rape. Rape roleplay? Not rape. Permission given before being drugged? Not rape (unless the un-drugged partner deviates heavily from the agreed upon parameters of what the drugged character consents to). Impromptu BDSM without prior discussion? Irresponsible, and in real life certainly not advisable, as after the fact it may well turn out to have been sexual assault. But within the context of fiction, so long as both characters want it and exhibit quite clear indicators of wanting it -- not rape. Consensual heavy pain play? Not sexual assault. The sleepwalking sex one is tricky, and should almost certainly be given a noncon warning tag, but I take no issue with it. The narrative does not communicate to the reader that sexual cruelty or non-consensual sexual sadism is romantic, erotic, or arousing. Nowhere is rape the intent.

Point being: no it's not a black and white issue, and yes there will be some discrepancy between individuals on what constitutes what. That much I consider obvious (though it was well pointed out, on your part). However, I certainly don't think so little of my own mental faculties that I consider my own judgment worthless in this area. Do I want to be the one to make the laws? Fuck no, that would be a dictatorship, which would be awful no matter what. But I feel not the least bit wary of making my own judgments and placing my own stock in them.

I accept the fact that others are doing the same, and that, in the specific environment of fandom, other people's judgments frequently lead them to take a different stance on this issue than I do. What I don't consider reasonable is the hostility with which people who share my viewpoint are met.

The pro-eroticized rapefic side of this debate - perhaps sensing that outside of fandom their opinions are largely unwelcomed - has become extremely defensive and reactionary. I can't think of the last time I voiced my opinion (in the same manner I am doing now) without having my character and my intelligence almost instantly attacked, en mass, by people who don't seem to realize that it is their voices which are the loudest, the angriest, and the most oppressive here. Very few people in fandom seem to be afraid to attack someone who says the things I have said in this thread. But many people who hold similar opinions to mine are afraid to speak even the mildest fraction of their opinions, even in their own spaces, lest their character and their intelligence be relentless attacked, en mass, and beyond all proportion to any alleged wrongdoing (or wrongthinking) they have committed.

It's that they post comments at the end of fic. It accomplishes nothing

I'm not sure I agree with OP's chosen course of action, but I disagree that it accomplishes nothing. In fact, it accomplishes the extremely important task of being a voice of dissent on an issue that is far from resolved, but which many voices of dissent are now afraid to speak about. OP's comments ensure that fics which portray rape in this false light are not permitted to operate in an echo chamber that does nothing but reinforce these depictions. If the only permissible answer to the statement: "This narrative about rape is hot," is agreement or silence, what is being perpetuated is not a balanced perspective in the least.

The fact that some people find these fics "hot" isn't the problem here. The problem is that a large percentage of fandom is trying to create an environment that does nothing but reinforce that perception. If OP is uncivil in her comments on these fics - if she attacks the author rather than critiquing the fic's content, then I don't support what she is doing. But nothing about her secret suggests that she is uncivil. If anything, she seems particularly preoccupied with being civil and constructive.

The problem is that a large percentage of fandom is trying to create an environment that does nothing but reinforce that perception.

Current fandom? Not so much.

And some years ago, when it was like that, fandom was more willing to not assume the worst of people.

As a result, exploring things in a fictional context was considered a good thing to do, without losing the awareness than in RL some of those elements are something to avoid.

That doesn't reinforce any perception. If anything, that invites people to think more than the "this is wrong and shouldn't be written" blanket.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2016-01-10 03:50 (UTC) - Expand

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