fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3309 ]

[ SECRET POST #3309 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3309 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 053 secrets from Secret Submission Post #473.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Except you don't need to be either racist or sexist. You're trapped in the sort of thinking that ruins a lot of good movements. The poor actions of a minority of a group of people don't mean that the entire group is deserving of hate.

It's possible to think that refugees who are rapists deserve to be punished without thinking all refugees are rapists or that all male refugees deserve to be punished. It really doesn't require any mental gymnastics to think that way.

So what do we do? Let them all in, and the ones that commit rapes we send back? That choice to ignore the risk lead to a fucking rape. Sure, we then know he's a bad one and can punish him (If we can find him and convict him) but that is still a woman who has been violated because we chose to let a rapist in the country.

You're being very creative with your interpretation of my comment. People who commit crimes should be punished. You can't punish someone preemptively before they've committed a crime on the basis that they might do it.

Far more non-refugees commit rapes than refugees. What should we do about that? Separate men and women entirely? Then separate all women from each other because women can be rapists too? Your logic is faulty.

It's a shitty world but do you honestly think it would be better if we refused people aid on the basis that there's a small chance they might potentially be a rapist.

This so much. There is always going to be a risk of crime. Always. Non-refugees commit more crimes, including rape, than refugees. When someone actually commits a crime we should punish them. But not pre-emptively. Not pre-emptively punishing does mean we take on a level of risk, but that risk is still the morally right choice when compared to the possibility of punishing someone for something they didn't do.

Yeah, this is my problem with it too.

And I'm uncomfortable with the idea that women are again, as always, expected to shut up and mutely accept this increased danger to their own well-being, with a smile, for the good of others.

I DO believe that taking in refugees is the right thing to do. But I would like to see a hell of a lot more discussion and just plain acknowledgement of what we're asking women to agree to, and of what women are agreeing to, despite the danger to themselves, because it's the right thing to do.

Hi, I'm a woman and I've read this comment about ten times, I'm not sure what I'm being asked to agree to? Can you clarify please? I promise I'm not trolling, I've just been kinda out of the news loop for a while.

That we will get more raped and sexually harassed. Because, y'know, only refugees do that. White guys neeeever do anything like that!

Statistically speaking I am, and always have been, in hell of a lot more danger from non-refugee men than refugee men.

It really doesn't require any mental gymnastics to think that way.

It clearly kinda does for a lot of people. That's why people fall into stereotyping groups they don't belong to, over and over again. Because they're not able to easily discern differences in members of groups they don't belong to.

It's the phenomenon of out-group homogeneity bias.

Edited 2016-01-26 00:51 (UTC)

SA

*sigh* You're right. I just wish more people were capable of basic empathy.

It's weird that you think that's a bad thing when you consistently show an out-group homogeneity bias against feminists.

I wouldn't say that's an out-group bias considering I used to be a feminist. There's a different term for the phenomenon where people feel the need to drop identification with a group.

I didn't say I thought out-group homogeneity bias was a bad thing, anyway.

Edited 2016-01-26 01:54 (UTC)

So this is more of a convert zeal sort of a situation?

No, because I didn't convert to anything. This is more "I escaped from a fundamentalist cult, only now can I see how truly bizarre and toxic it was."

DA but what kind of batshit feminists were you hanging around with that you consider it a "fundamentalist cult"? I've seen the extremists at either end and had the worst of it from both of them but most people of any belief system I meet are more moderate. If I want to believe that the extremists are representative of a group or movement, well, that's a choice I actively have to make.

Is it because you're non-binary and you interacted with a lot of those idiot TERFs?

but what kind of batshit feminists were you hanging around with that you consider it a "fundamentalist cult"?

Pretty much every feminist group I've been around in the last decade. I was a SJ/feminist blogger though, so I was probably more deeply immersed in the SJ/feminist scene than many feminists.

Is it because you're non-binary and you interacted with a lot of those idiot TERFs?

No, I've barely interacted with TERFs, if anything. That's the good thing about being a member of a fundamentalist sect (in this case, modern feminists), they protect you from those with opposing views that contradict doctrine. And by "protect" I mean threaten to shun you if you have any sort of polite relationship with members of the enemy out-group.

Not that I feel like I've missed anything by being kept from the TERFs.

Edited 2016-01-26 06:47 (UTC)

SA: It sucks that you've had those experiences and I understand why you'd be wary of larger groups of belief systems.

My experience has been completely different. Maybe because I hang around with people similar in beliefs to myself but all the feminists I know are actively against the more egregious forms of sexism (including issues which only affect men) and extremely vocal in their disagreements with TERFs and other people who try to legitimise bigotry using feminist rhetoric they either don't understand or are wilfully misinterpreting for their own ends. They all think shirtgate and manspreading is nonsense that detracts from actual issues. And they often criticise feminist theory and disagree even with each other about interpretations of certain ones.

I totally get how the worst of the movement drives people away, though. Hell, I'm a feminist bisexual sex worker so I've had other feminists actively tell me I can't be one because of that. I've also had antifeminists tell me I can't be one because I don't fit in with the ugly manhating stereotype. O_o

Your Christian analogy kind of falls flat with me. I'm not American. The majority of Catholics in my country voted to legalise gay marriage and our equivalent of Plan B has been legal and free to anyone who asks for it since the 80s. You've been exposed to the worst of the worst and your beliefs reflect that experience. I've been exposed to people who use their political beliefs to make the world better and mine reflects that.

SA. Although if I'd been a social justice blogger and regularly had to interact with them I'd probably have gouged out my own eyes by now.

It sucks that you've had those experiences and I understand why you'd be wary of larger groups of belief systems.

Yeah, I'm largely avoiding adopting any social group identities unless truly necessary. I believe that such identities, while they have their uses, contribute to the things like I mentioned above, like out-group-homogeneity-bias. They often feed generalizations and stereotyping, which in turn feed oppression and hate.

I am glad you have found some fellow feminists that are critical and think for themselves. I have some feminist friends that are so as well (they are an extreme minority of my experience with feminists though).

Your Christian analogy kind of falls flat with me.

I thought it might be so, which is why I wiped it at the last moment. I'm sorry for having you read such a long-winded ramble, when it wasn't even informative.

I understand. Honestly, I do. When I was a teenager and emotionally immature because, well, I was also not physically mature I used to froth at the mouth a bit about people not identifying as feminists. Now I understand that what someone calls themselves is inconsequential as long as they act decently. Kind of glad Tumblr didn't even exist back then :D

DA

I kind of want to apologize to you, 'cause while it's only been once or twice, I've engaged you on your anti-feminist views before, and in very knee-jerk ways. I didn't think to listen to your side of the story, and now having read it, I think I get where you're coming from. What you're exposed to is obviously going to form your opinions, and your experiences have been overwhelmingly negative.

I do hope you continue to meet critical, self-thinking feminists, and less 'toe-the-party-line' feminists. Even if you choose not to take on the label again, it'd be a good thing.

Something I noticed this thread failed to mention are the number of refugee women who have been saved from violent situations. Being forced to stay in Syria would increase the chances of them being killed, injured, or raped.

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