fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3324 ]

[ SECRET POST #3324 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3324 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Dishonored]

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04. [tb #3]
[One Piece]

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[Kung Fu Panda]

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[Music video: Poets of the Fall, "Daze" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di7NMssrqsE)]

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[Digimon Tri]

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(Pokémon)

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 039 secrets from Secret Submission Post #475.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Oh god, yes, especially since these people who bitch the most about women and non-white people being in fantasy/historical movies actually don't know jack shit about history. They'll try to claim that Europe was 100% white (cough, the Moors, North Africans, Arabs, etc apparently did not exist) and women did nothing but sit in houses having babies and getting raped (I could name a couple women that went around murdering people with swords, not to mention lead in war times, run businesses, and generally have quite a bit of agency) but they don't actually care about facts.

Now, in fantasy, I personally am interested in realistic world-building. I can't say I'm severely offended if your fantasy country is predominantly white or whatever, and if women do nothing but sit around, then fine, your world. But don't act like there's a historical precedent for everyone who isn't white and male being invisible. And you're writing fantasy for goodness sake - your characters are fighting dragons but you whine about how unrealistic it is that a woman can wield a sword? pfft.

So many plus signs....

Look, I think it is silly too. But don't argue that the small tiny percentage of poc or women who were the exception are actually the rule.

But they aren't the exception. Literal nations of non-white people existed and interacted throughout the medieval period in Europe or the European area. Northern Africa was a huge religious and economic center. The Moors existed right in Spain. Societies the Mediterranean and West Asia made up the medieval era as much as anyone.

And women basically anywhere had loads more agency than Game of Thrones would have you believe. It's a skewed reality to suggest women were constantly put down, raped, and treated as possessions. Women inherited money and property, ran businesses, were masters of trades, could run estates. Could even, le gasp, consent to marriage on occasion. Am I suggesting the social status of women was identical to men? Well, the answer is complicated, but okay, let's just say no - the point is, it is naive and incorrect to say women had no rights and were just good for babies, baking bread and being raped.

They were a part of the medieval world but they were not fully integrated in every part of medieval society.

What? What are you talking about?

First, what the hell is "medieval society" and what does "being integrated in every part of it" mean? Do you have any idea what these terms mean?

Maybe if we're talking specifically about Europe from the 5th to 15th century, that might the case. But if we go to other parts of the world, this isn't true. The two most prominent examples I can think of is the Mongolians and the Haudenosaunee.

I get that fantasy tends to have a very Western European flavor to it, but as much as people have traded with each other over the course of world history, I don't see why you can't have the occasional non-European pop up in a fantasy setting. I feel like a competent writer wouldn't have any trouble integrating them into the story in a way that didn't break the audience's suspension of disbelief.

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(Anonymous) - 2016-02-10 00:15 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2016-02-10 00:19 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2016-02-10 00:22 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2016-02-10 01:29 (UTC) - Expand

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dratinis - 2016-02-10 00:31 (UTC) - Expand

Is Game of Thrones the only fantasy thing you have watched/read??

That's your best rebuttal, huh.

Movies are always about the chosen one, the unfortunate hero, the exception.

Yes, this.

How many Moors, North Africans, and Arabs should a work set in medieval Finland be required to have?

If you choose to set it in Finland, people are just going to say you chose that setting so you could accurately get away with not having POC.

So there are no interesting stories to be told about Finland?

I have never seen anyone criticize the racial dynamics of How to Train Your Dragon. Take that in whatever direction you want.

Well I'm pretty sure the subtext of this entire conversation is Frozen, for whatever that's worth.

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(Anonymous) - 2016-02-10 00:29 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2016-02-10 01:00 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2016-02-10 01:39 (UTC) - Expand

It's funny: I watched that movie for the very first time the other night and all I could think is: wtf? Why do the Norse have Scottish accents but the boy has a U.S. flat Midwestern accent and the girl a SoCal one? So weird!

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2016-02-10 14:33 (UTC) - Expand

I never once spoke to stories being "required" to have POC. I don't think any story is required to have anyone. The point is that if there IS a POC or a leading woman, THAT is not necessarily unrealistic.

You're asking how many non-white people would be in Medieval Finland? Well, you're going to have foreign merchants trading for furs and fish. You're going to have missionaries and clergy in large centers. One of the most famous records of medieval Scandinavia and the Vikings came from Ahmad ibn Fadlan, after all. Scandinavia and Finland were trading with these people since before the Viking Age.

Do you HAVE to feature these people? No, do what the fuck you want. If you are writing about a major city and include trade and church and all your faces are lily white? We're starting to get a tad suspicious on accounts of "historical accuracy". And if someone else has a story featuring an Arab or North African in medieval Finland and you say "that's just PC pandering" then you're the one who could use a history lesson or two.

What I want is, I want for everyone to be able to write the stories that they want to write and find interesting, and I want a system that doesn't over-privilege white creators or subjects and that allows POC creators and POC stories to get told in equal amounts. And personally I want to read those stories.

What I don't want is a witch hunt against anyone who is telling stories that don't include POC. And don't say for a second that's never happened.

You seem intent on putting me on a side in this issue that I never claimed to be on. You clearly have an agenda in this argument that I do not. What I actually care about is history, and what pisses me off is bullshit claims about history that are agenda or bias-driven. I think people are full of shit when they try to claim that racism didn't exist in medieval times and every third princess in England was a black woman, and I think people who claim POC were nonexistent and women did nothing in medieval times are full of shit, too. The problem is, one of these sides is reflected far more often in media.

I don't really care what people write fantasy stories about. And I don't think every medieval historical novel must include a sword-fighting woman and a POC. I only care when people justify their complete lack of POC and women with arguments that pose as historical but are not actually historical.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2016-02-10 00:13 (UTC) - Expand

>fins
>white

No, they are usually grey and spiky, but we are not talking about fish here.

Anglo-Saxon women had a lot of agency. One good reason among many to be annoyed at the Norman conquest of England.

Only if you know next to nothing about Norman women.

>women and non-white people being in fantasy/historical

Speaking of which: I'm really enjoying the new TV series Beowulf.

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