[ SECRET POST #3367 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3367 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 038 secrets from Secret Submission Post #481.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Jesus Christ.

[chardmonster]

I hate Trump as much as anyone. He's a bigoted asshole.

You know how you fight this? You have anti-Trump demonstrations! Fully support that.

You know how you don't fight this? By acting like fucking chalk drawings for a political candidate are a threat you have to run to the Grownups about. Isolating yourself from opposition is never, ever going to train you to fight it. The student movements of the sixties and seventies didn't win concessions by saying they felt bad. They fucking occupied offices and quads. They got in people's faces.

These people aren't fighting, they're creating an easily-handled customer service ticket for the institution they're paying exorbitant amounts of money to.

These people aren't fighting bullies. They're asking the principal to yell at bullies for them.

“You are not listening! Come speak to us, we are in pain!”

If chalk makes you "in pain" how the hell are you going to fight the thugs? Because the thugs will come.

Re: Jesus Christ.

[(Anonymous)]

You think they're actually in pain from chalk markings? Please. They want their way, they want it now, and this is the quickest and easiest way to get it. Entitled, narcissistic infants, crying crocodile tears.

Re: Jesus Christ.

[chardmonster]

No, I totally get that they're in pain. I'm in pain. I'm Arab-American. I haven't been this worried or felt this unwelcome since 9/11. Trump is uncovering, encouraging and increasing really ugly rhetoric. And it's going to get worse when he wins the nomination and is fighting a Democrat. He hasn't bothered to say anything really ugly about LGBT folks yet and that's going to happen.

Entitled, narcissistic infants, crying crocodile tears.

Nah. Not infants. Infantalized, though. A lot of the problem is that schools teach major protest movements wrong, if at all. We act like the Civil Rights Movement, Women's Movement, Gay Liberation Movement, etc basically stated their grievances and acted politely until they got their way. Rosa Parks was a kindly old tired lady and not a dedicated activist executing a planned provocation. Stonewall was just a lot of people finally Fed Up! No they weren't throwing rocks at police that's impossible. Act Up? That's just a line from Rent right

You get the real history in college! But that might be too late. By that point it's ingrained in you that change happens by appealing to authority and expecting them to do the right thing.

Re: Jesus Christ.

[(Anonymous)]

No they weren't throwing rocks at police that's impossible.

You advocate violent protests then?

Re: Jesus Christ.

[(Anonymous)]

Not Chard but, like. When the fascists show up, you have to stop fucking around. I'm not advocating violent protests yet but there's clearly a point where that's going to happen.

Re: Jesus Christ.

[(Anonymous)]

Can you give me a current example of fascists showing up? I'm assuming you're not equating chalked campaign slogans to fascism.

Re: Jesus Christ.

[chardmonster]

I don't like using the word fascist without it meeting the actual definition (words mean things!). That's why I used the word "thug" instead.

But look at how protesters are treated at Trump rallies. They're not only getting roughed up, the guy at the podium is encouraging it.

Re: Jesus Christ.

[(Anonymous)]

But look at how protesters are treated at Trump rallies.

This. This unbelievable willful ignorance. This infuriating double standard. This is why I have to abandon the left. Trump supporters and Trump protesters are the same exact person in my mind now.

Re: Jesus Christ.

[chardmonster]

No I'm pretty sure you abandoned the left because all these people actually wanting things to change triggered you.

Here's your red hat what's your hurry?

But yeah, I'm not saying the guy in the Trump shirt is the same as the idiot punching protesters. But you know what? A lot of the pro-Trump people are cheering while that happens. That's scary as fuck.

Re: Jesus Christ.

[(Anonymous)]

Could you elaborate on that view? Not sure where you're coming from.

Re: Jesus Christ.

[(Anonymous)]

I touched a bit on my concerns downthread. I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to bow out now because I'm just really fucking tired of being attacked by my own political party.

Re: Jesus Christ.

[(Anonymous)]

It looks like people here are politely disagreeing, not attacking?

Re: Jesus Christ.

[(Anonymous)]

Fascism is obviously a hugely weighted term. So let's consider it on two levels: as a historical comparison, and as a term of rhetoric.

As a historical comparison, does the Trump phenomenon bear the weight of the term? Well, there are a lot of senses in which fascism is specific to the post-WWI milieu - the emphasis on the modern and novelty, for instance. On the other hand, when you look at things like the rejection of fact, the emphasis on violence in action and rhetoric, the total disinterest in ideological consistency or coherence, the appeal to a mythologized past - those things are I would say clearly present in Trump and his followers, and that's profoundly worrying.

From a rhetorical point of view, what is the use of fascism meant to denote? It is meant to - first - associate something with a tradition of radical, violent right-wing politics - to separate it from the political mainstream as something distinct and distinctly threatening - and second to call up the idea that opposition to the thing is necessary both politically and morally. And I think the Trump campaign is distinctly dangerous, in the open violence of its rhetoric and it's whole-sale rejection of liberal norms, and I think that kind of respons is merited.

So in other words: what I am shortcutting here is the idea that the Trump campaign belongs in a lineage of violent, radical, anti-liberal democratic, dangerous right wing political movement, and I think worry and concerted action are both justified on those grounds. I hope this answers your question.

That's an awesome breakdown, but:

[chardmonster]

Would you agree that maybe "authoritarian" is a better word for people studying Trump?

I'm speaking in terms of formal analysis rather than just normal discussion. For the latter you can't really get as visceral as the F word and it's less important to be precise.

Re: That's an awesome breakdown, but:

[(Anonymous)]

To be honest, I think fascist is really much more accurate. The advantage of authoritarian is that it's less freighted and easier to use. But the pitch and tenor of Trump's run - the wild unpredictability, the hostility to the establishment, the faith in the character of the man as savior, the pronounced irrationalism - those are things that are much, much closer to fascism for me than they are to authoritarianism. It's not like he's appealing to a visceral desire for order or spending a ton of time talking about national honor, nor does he as a political figure really have the qualities you'd associate with an authoritarian figurehead. So, really, no, from a political science view I think fascist is a more accurate term. If you wanted to avoid the politicization, I'd go to right-wing populist before authoritarian.

Re: Jesus Christ.

[(Anonymous)]

Do you know what I, as a liberal, consider anti-liberal? Infringing on others' right to free speech and free assembly. This is equally as alarming and disgusting to me as the hatred and bigotry on the right. They are both rooted in authoritarianism.

Re: Jesus Christ.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, one, I don't agree that they're both rooted in the same thing necessarily, but that's a minor point and I do see where you're coming from.

My thing is, I would also call myself a liberal in the sense you're using it here. And I agree that the protests are, in a meaningful sense, illiberal. But to me, Donald Trump represents precisely the kind of threat that justifies illiberal action. This is precisely the case where these kinds of protests are justified because the basic idea of a liberal body politic is what Trump threatens.

Liberalism is not a suicide note and there are movements and views that absolutely threaten it. And ultimately to me a belief in liberalism entails a belief that sometimes there are times you have to stop this kind of threat to maintain liberalism. It's an existential threat.

But that is just my view.

Re: Jesus Christ.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, I understand that view.

Where we disagree is that I don't believe anything justifies authoritarianism. Not even Trump.

Re: Jesus Christ.

[(Anonymous)]

Not anything at all? Go down with the ship and be buried on your principles, that kind of thing?

Re: Jesus Christ.

[chardmonster]

There's a big difference between throwing a rock and trying to murder someone.

Re: Jesus Christ.

[(Anonymous)]

Quite.

Re: Jesus Christ.

[(Anonymous)]

Hey chard, you're a historian right? I'm curious, what do you think of the Trump-Hitler comparisons?

Re: Jesus Christ.

[chardmonster]

I think it's a shame Hitler's always the go-to when there are plenty of assholes in history.

Re: Jesus Christ.

[(Anonymous)]

I would say Trump is more of a Joseph Chamberlain-Mussolini hybrid. If I had to say.

[diet_poison]

+10000000