fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3409 ]

[ SECRET POST #3409 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3409 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02.

[Prince, Warren Zevon, Ricky Wilson (of the B-52s), Kurt Cobain
John Lennon, Keith Moon, Jimi Hendrix, Nico
Freddie Mercury, Marvin Gaye, Janis Joplin, Amy Winehouse]

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03.

[Criminal Minds]

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04.

[Final Fantasy 7]

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05.

(The Amazing Race)

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06.

[Zootopia]

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07.

[DMMd/Pokemon]

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08.

[Saint Seiya]

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09.

[Freefall]

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10.

[Ministry of Abnormality/COMMISSIONED Comic]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 026 secrets from Secret Submission Post #487.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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04. http://i.imgur.com/6xyPrQK.jpg
[Final Fantasy 7]

I am so with you - on both counts. I played FFVII for the first time pretty recently myself, and it was a really fun game.
But like you, I'm not crazy about Tifa, which I kind of blame the developers for. I think the difficulty is that her past *is* tied into Cloud's, so it got kind of subsumed by his backstory. If you notice, most of the other characters get their little arc and that's basically it for them (I mean, that's a technical flaw when you have a cast of that size). So in that sense, Tifa isn't too much worse off than the others. But like you say, so much of her past ends up revolving around Cloud that it kind of sucks for her character.
Personally, I was never quite clear on why she fixated so strongly on him in the first place.

And like you say, even though Aerith's dead so that kind of leaves Tifa, and I wouldn't want Cloud to be hung up forever on a dead girlfriend, I kind shipped Cloud with her a bit more than Cloud/Tifa. While it's true that his personality was fucked up when he met her, given the huge mess his memories were, I can't help but think that an adult relationship that he actually remembers would be healthier for him.

Funny, Tifa became my favorite character after replaying it not that long ago. But on the whole? I agree with you for the most part.

The naive part of me hopes that maybe this will be rectified in the FF7 remake, but ah... modern day Squenix/post-Compilation of FF7 gives me absolutely no hope that Tifa will be given proper character development outside of being an accessory to Cloud. :/

I want to have hope too, but having hope means having expectations and I CAN'T DO THAT AGAIN, SQUARE. I WON'T LET YOU BREAK MY HEART AGAIN.

yes, I agree. when I replayed FF7, I was disappointed to realize just how completely tifa's character revolves around cloud. it doesn't really seem like she had a life of her own before he showed up again.

on a side note, I reeeally don't ship cloud/tifa and I hate it when people go "welp aeris is dead and there's no other option so it has to be canon." I mean, I get the logic, but at the same time I think they're such a bad romantic match for each other that I'd really rather they never officially shack up lmao. cloud seriously needs to stay single for a while. unfortunately, I think square feels differently so I'm steeling myself for the remake.

As far as we know Cloud has been single for all his life, so he has been for a while already.

obviously I meant for a (long) while after post-game and not that shit tifa pulled in advent children where she wanted cloud to come home and play daddy or some such.

idk, OP, I kind of feel the point of Tifa is that she's absolutely NOT girlfriend material. She spends at least half the game lying to Cloud and fueling his delusions, hiding her suspicions from the rest of Avalanche, and through her cowardice and insecurity she's ultimately responsible for paving the way for Sephiroth's mindfuck at the crater.

The game even highlights this pretty well imo. Tifa might be sweet-natured and "nurturing", but this is also her greatest failing. Her relationships are well-meant but harmful. She clings to childish daydreams and warps herself around this myth of Cloud Strife the brave hero because to do otherwise would be to acknowledge how damaging she's been to others. Meanwhile Aeris holds people at an arm's length and comes across as a bit callous, but she also never enables people the way Tifa does. Cloud's mom says he needs an older girlfriend who'll 'take care of him', and of the two women it's Aeris who actually succeeds at that by living and dying on her own terms rather than latching onto Cloud.

idk, OP, I kind of feel the point of Tifa is that she's absolutely NOT girlfriend material.

I don't think that's the "point" of Tifa's character but it is absolutely true.

Tifa and Cloud would not be a healthy match. If Tifa can't even tell Cloud something that's kind of VERY important, allowing it to escalate and blow up at the worst of moments, and she's willing to throw away everything else in life for Cloud... she is not going to have a healthy relationship with him.

I like Tifa but imo Aeris was clearly the better match, seemed like Cloud was always his best self around her. Actually, it's because I like Tifa that I don't want her to be with Cloud, I think she's her worst self around him.

That was poor phrasing, but I absolutely think the writers intended her to be seen as a bad friend/girlfriend and for it to be a major theme of her writing.

I mean, this is a character who's introduced to us with a really out-of-place flashback where she's reminiscing about a promise this near-stranger made to her when they were children. It's no accident that this is one of the most trite and awkward scenes in the game, that Tifa comes across instantly as a bit pushy and emotionally manipulative, and that Cloud clearly Does Not Reciprocate. It tells us exactly who Tifa is- someone clinging to a childish dream of being saved from her problems, who's going to project this role onto Cloud whether he likes it or not.

I can see where you're getting that, but I wouldn't credit Square writers for thinking that deeply at all. It's a shallow story full of shallow characters and plotholes everywhere. I think they were trying to write an ideal girlfriend character and then just failed due to their own incompetence. Compare Tifa to a host of cliched harem anime and you find she fits the childhood friend type to a T. Plus, keep in mind that lying to someone to protect them is often seen as a POSITIVE thing in Asia. It's very American to be like, "the truth and nothing but the truth!" Japanese people do not think that way, trust me.

I wouldn't give them any credit for any sort of subtle writing at all. And frankly, this was also an era of mildly shoddy translations, so it's debatable the original intentions even came across in the English version anyway.

And I say this as someone who has played FF7 multiple times and used to be a huge fan.

to add to that...

(Anonymous) - 2016-05-05 02:49 (UTC) - Expand

Re: to add to that...

(Anonymous) - 2016-05-05 03:28 (UTC) - Expand

DA

(Anonymous) - 2016-05-05 03:28 (UTC) - Expand

Re: to add to that...

(Anonymous) - 2016-05-05 05:16 (UTC) - Expand

Yeah, I never got the hype for Tifa because her whole character revolves entirely around Cloud. Say what you will about Aeris being "weak", but at least she has interests and concerns that go beyond "muh Cloud".

I liked Tifa a lot when I played the game ten years ago, but replaying as an adult, I find her immensely disappointing.

The thing is, I disagree that she's actually badass. I think you see "female martial artist" and assume she's a strong character, but she's not, she's pretty weak on the inside. She spends the majority of the game stalling about what to say to Cloud because she desperately wants to bone him - after like all of a week of meeting him again as an adult (reminder that she was never that close to him in childhood, and even if they ended as sorta friends, it seems a stretch to assume Tifa ever had a crush on him in the way that he liked her at that time). And what really killed me is when she abandoned the rest of Avalanche on their quest to, you know, save the world, because she had to watch Cloud drool in a wheelchair. Her entire plot really did revolve around Cloud. And while I do think there's more to her than just him, her being a martial artist doesn't make up for her being a male-driven female character in a miniskirt. Her best lines are when she's not talking to Cloud.

Also, I never thought she was the canon girlfriend. I mean, in the ending, Cloud basically rejects her - at least, that's how I interpret it - when he says something like "I think I understand about the Promised Land, and I can meet her there." (Aeris, obviously) And Tifa has this resigned look, and says "Yeah, let's go meet her." I always interpreted that to being that Cloud "chose" Aeris in the end - or no one, really, since she's dead, and instead was coming to this spiritual conclusion about himself and her.

Plus her gross cow tits on;y really exist for guys

The writing (translating?) in FF7 is pretty atrocious overall, but I especially hated how hung-up Tifa and Aeris both were on Cloud.

I never found Aeris to be all that hung up on Cloud, she seemed much more focused on her past and her being a Cetra. And it can be argued her interest in Cloud is more about his connection to Zack rather than just simple romance.

ia, while Aeris is obviously flirtatious with Cloud, she doesn't go with him because she wants to fuck him. She tags along because she wants to find out more about the Cetra and figure her shit out, and then she's motivated by saving the Planet. She's got a storyline totally independent of her interest in Cloud. I think the romance is certainly there and is intended to be, but it's a stark contrast from Tifa.

And the annoying thing is, Tifa should've had more personal motivation. Sephiroth burned down her hometown and murdered her dad, after all. But the vast majority of what we see about her reasons of being there are because of Cloud. She's never really given the chance to have her own independent storyline and motivations.

I never played FFVII, but I used to hang out at a forum where a bunch of people (including the mod) were huge Tifa stans. They could never talk enough about how awesome she was and so much better than Aerith. I could pretty much tell it was all based on thinking "physical fighter = strong woman" and "healer in pink dress = weak and boring." I just thought Tifa must be a shallow a character if those were the kinds of fans she attracted. It sounds like I was right.

I think there are genuine reasons to like Tifa, but I'd say her and Aeris have opposite personalities from how they appear. Tifa looks physically strong and badass but is emotionally insecure and very dependent. Aeris appears to be the weak, ultra-feminine mage, but is very independent and strong in personality.

This. It's galling how the fandom, even to this day, misses the point of this neat little subversion. Then again, subsequent side material for FF7 has bastardized Aeris into being a perfect, pure, "Yamato Nadeshiko" character, so I can't exactly blame them.

Well, this forum stuff all happened when the game was still newish before any side material existed, so the fans there didn't even have that excuse.

Re: Subthread OP

(Anonymous) - 2016-05-05 07:49 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2016-05-05 03:31 (UTC) - Expand

If you want to see a great take on Tifa's character, check out Team Fourstar's FF7 Machinamabridged. The portrayal of Aerith may initially be grating but it's hinting that she's more than likely obfuscating stupidity and airheadedness than truly being that way. Honestly overall it's a lot closer to their actual game selves than a lot of the side official material.

...I haven't played FF7 in years but reading through this made me REALLY crave some Cloud/Tifa/Aeris poly relationship stuff. Tifa could learn so much from Aeris in particular, and I feel like their bond could really solidify in this sort of scenario. Hmmmm.

I think everything you've said is true, but it is perhaps why Tifa is probably my favourite. She's not a blank slate, but she gets so little from the writing, the rest of the cast gets their arc, but she's tied up with Cloud so much that we're never shown how she really feels. It would be really interesting to get into the "perfect girlfriend" tropes she exhibits, and to actually see her past and how that effected her. Unfortunately, all the game really gives us seems to point to, well... she's in love with him the entire time, but the abscence for me also points to more complexity. Does she bring up the promise because she really wants this weird kid she kinda knew once to be her knight in shining armour, or is she playing him, to keep the highly skilled mercenary with Avalanche? Does she keep quiet about Nibelheim because she doesn't want to hurt him? Or is it out of concern for her/the others safety? Cloud clearly has episodes that could make someone, especially a meek person, want to avoid causing him that kind of distress. Which also makes me want to mention, what the hell is going on that the rest of the party are just like "Hey, this is okay, he just beat Aerith and she run off on her own, fuck it, we'll stick with Cloud."

I will say the death of her father and the destruction of Nibelheim gets some mention as her motivation for working with Avalanche, but not nearly enough compared to the rest. It's said, and then shrugged off to focus on Cloud. There's also the five year gap between Nibelheim and the game, where she goes from severely wounded teenage mountain guide, to running a bar in the Midgar Slums and part of an eco-terrorist group. Again, an interesting, and probably important story that's completely absent. Same with the friendship with Aerith, they clearly get on very well from the get go, and for me, they almost seem to acknowledging each other as knowing plenty about what is wrong with Cloud, almost as if they've talked about it privately. I don't know, I may be pushing my own ideas in there.

But yeah, Tifa seems to be an attempt at a particular archetype, and as I recall, she was added quite late in the writing process. I think what that has lead to is an attempt to push her into a certain role of an already formed story, juxtaposing with Aerith, and giving a look at Cloud's past, and being a romantic interest, without getting a proper arc like the other characters. By adding her in, without adjusting the story enough, the character of Tifa is defined by absence, abscence of her thoughts, her feelings and motivations in many places a character so central to the story should really show them for the audience.

This means there's gaps to fill between a number of characteristics people relate to like shyness, struggling to make a big decision, and stuff people desire to be, attractive, physically strong and very caring.

As an addendum, I'd agree on the canon side of things re:shipping. The game clearly set up Aerith and Tifa as romantic interests. One dies, and then Advent Children, as much as I loathe it, has Cloud and Tifa living together with an adopted child. I'm fairly sure that's pointing somewhere. Whether that's a good relationship for the two of them,or lasting relationship is up in the air. I'd say Advent Children suggests it is not a good idea, although I'm not sure that was the authorial intent, it's about as canon as we have. Still, it's probably better for Cloud to not be forming a family unit with two PTSD riddled parents in their early twenties, an orphan from the streets and a friend's kid (who can't travel the world with you Barret? WTF?), nor pining over a dead woman he knew for like a few months if we're being generous with the timeline.

Mm, I'd say that, by the end of Advent Children, Tifa and Cloud both have learned a lot. Cloud to stop hiding things and open up to share the burdens, and Tifa learned a hell of a lot from FF7--to open up and not let her insecurities get the better of her. She seemed a lot stronger there than in 7.

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