[ SECRET POST #3435 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3435 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.


__________________________________________________



02.

__________________________________________________



03.


__________________________________________________



04.


__________________________________________________



05.


__________________________________________________



06.


__________________________________________________



07.


__________________________________________________



08.


__________________________________________________



09.













Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 38 secrets from Secret Submission Post #491.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[diet_poison]

The words OP used were "mistreated" (implies abuse), "evil" (shouldn't have to explain that) and "reprehensibly" (as an anon pointed out that pretty much excludes mild or moderate acts of wrongdoing). What exactly did OP say to make you think their response covered ALL forms of hurt?

[(Anonymous)]

Reprehensible just means blameworthy; that covers an awful lot of ground. "Immediately abandon" also suggests that OP doesn't stop to hear the other person's side of it--in other words, OP is proceeding on the assumption that they're incapable of misunderstanding or of blaming the wrong person. In short, OP sounds exactly like the few actually toxic people I know--people who can't see themselves as anything but the injured party, and who are always totting up the wrongs done to their blameless selves by others.

[diet_poison]

I still think you're reading a lot into it - or at least, we're reading very different things. My impression was "once someone has hurt me badly [implied: and I know it was them], I no longer wish to have a relationship with them".

Some stuff is uncertain and hearing the other person's side of it can help. But in some instances - say, if you walk in on your SO cheating on you - there's not a lot that has to be said. Some people prefer to talk after something like that, and some just prefer to leave.

In short, OP sounds exactly like the few actually toxic people I know

...are you sure you're not projecting? 'cause it really kinda sounds like you are.

[(Anonymous)]

It really sounds like AYRT has serious abandonment issues that they're projecting like fuck onto other people. Which in itself proves they're pretty toxic.

[diet_poison]

I don't think I would call them toxic for that. But projecting? Very likely.

I actually understand what it's like to have abandonment problems, so if that's true, I feel for them. (Though I don't think it makes them right in this case.)

[(Anonymous)]

The fact they separate "being sorry" from "being forgiven" tells me they're plenty toxic. The only people I've seen that pattern in are those who really don't care what they did wrong, they just care that they got caught and you're mad at them for it.

[diet_poison]

I guess I don't agree (necessarily) from the information we have. Could be.

[(Anonymous)]

IDK, I pointed out that one reason to forgive people who have hurt you is that you are an imperfect being who may one day be in need of forgiveness. Because you never know when something you or I might think innocuous turns out to hurt someone. Because "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"--does that ring any bells? This is the first time I've ever heard the Golden Rule called "selfish, toxic bullshit," so I'm really shaking my head over all this.

[(Anonymous)]

Because you're expecting to be forgiven simply because "nobody's perfect" rather than "because you're actually sorry." That is selfish. You are not entitled to anybody's forgiveness.

[(Anonymous)]

I feel like you are really being deliberately obtuse here. No one except you has said anything about "expecting" to be forgiven, or being
entitled" to it because "nobody's perfect." Let me break it down for you step by step.

(1) A reason to forgive others

(2) is that we ourselves are not perfect and may one day be in need of forgiveness--because nobody gets through life without sinning against others (yes, I went there)

(3) so we act toward others (forgiving those who have wronged us) as we would wish and hope for them to act toward us.

Whether or not they're sorry might have a bearing on whether we want to forgive them, or whether we feel safe forgiving them. But really, the only reason we need to forgive others is that we might one day need the same ourselves, and that we should treat others the way we would hope to be treated. It doesn't, of course, mean we will be forgiven, whether we're sorry or not. After all, no one has to forgive anyone, no matter how sorry they are.

[(Anonymous)]

But really, the only reason we need to forgive others is that we might one day need the same ourselves, and that we should treat others the way we would hope to be treated.

Which is again you saying that there would be no point to forgiving anyone if doing so might not directly benefit you. And again, that is selfish, toxic bullshit.

[(Anonymous)]

Nope. If forgiving others were some sort of guarantee that you would be forgiven yourself if you needed it, if there were such a thing as a deposit in the forgiveness karma bank, then you might say that you were giving in order to get. But there's no guarantee, so you're not forgiving in order to receive some future benefit. It's not like social security, you're not paying into the system in order to take out at a future date. It's just treating others the way you would hope to be treated yourself.

[(Anonymous)]

You just got done saying that the ONLY reason to forgive is in the hope you might benefit from it. Yes, that is fucking selfish and no matter what language you couch it in, it always will be.

[(Anonymous)]

So by the same logic, the only reason to be nice to a woman is in the hope that she'll give you a blowjob someday when you really need one, right?

[(Anonymous)]

What the fuck even is this?

[(Anonymous)]

It's illustrating how self-serving Anon's argument is. "Forgive people in the hope they'll do the same for you when you need it" is the same creepy reasoning Nice Guys use when they're being nice to women in the hope of getting sexual favors. It's ridiculously selfish and entitled.

"Treat people how you want to be treated" is a selfish, toxic view because it's forcing your preference onto other people. What if they don't want to be treated the way you want to be treated?

[diet_poison]

You seem to be unable to understand, based on this and other comments, that there are different degrees of badness and hurt. Cheating on someone, hitting them outside of self-defense, or publicly humiliating them as a form of control or out of malice are FAR worse than, say, accidentally using a name they don't like, playing a low-level prank, or saying something mean in a heated moment. Like we all do bad things, and mean things, but people make choices about doing things that really, seriously hurt others. Just because I have accidentally said hurtful things or been late to dinner dates doesn't mean that I don't deserve forgiveness for those if I am reluctant to forgive someone for hurting me far more seriously.

Also, you are twisting the meaning of the golden rule in a way that is set up to guilt trip people for not being perfect victims, and yes, I am willing to call that selfish and toxic. The golden rule should be applied to yourself, not twisted and used to beat other people over the head for not being as self-sacrificing as you think they should be to accept that they're not terrible people. That's honestly pretty manipulative. Nobody is entitled to forgiveness.

(And for the record, I am very pro-forgiveness, but I think it should be done for the right reasons; believing you won't ever deserve to be forgiven for minor fuckups if you don't do it is not the right reason, and nor is believing that you have to save up forgiveness karma in case you ever make a big screw up so you'll have enough in the bank for someone else to forgive you.)

[(Anonymous)]

I feel you're setting up a false dichotomy between "really bad" acts like cheating or publicly humiliating someone out of malice or for the sake of control, and "low-level" acts like snapping at someone when you're stressed or being late to a dinner date, which you are willing to regard as forgivable because you don't see them as serious, and they were accidental or done in a heated moment rather than with malice aforethought. (Really, how petty would you have to be to refuse to forgive someone for being late to a dinner date?)

You're proceeding from the assumption that "real, serious hurt" is always inflicted deliberately and not thoughtlessly, that what we perceive as "minor fuckups" never do major harm. (I'm also getting the vibe that you are operating from the premise that you are a person who has never and would never really, seriously hurt anyone, so you don't have to worry about doing anything that someone might refuse to forgive you for.)

Please point me to where I have said anyone is "entitled" to forgiveness, or where I laid down any requirements for being a "perfect victim." And I certainly never suggested that treating others as you would hope to be treated yourself is a deposit of karma in the forgiveness bank. It's certainly not a guarantee and I never suggested that it was one. If anyone is twisting the Golden Rule, it is you.

[diet_poison]

If it's not about karma or deserving then what is the point in basing your forgiveness of people on whether you'd want them to do it to you?

Unless you're just talking about having empathy for people, by putting yourself in their shoes, but if that's the case there are definitely other factors that going into forgiving someone. And forgiving someone does not always mean telling them about it, so empathy doesn't always play a role.

There's forgiving (which should be done for the benefit of the forgiver) and accepting/giving another chance, which is done for the benefit of the forgivee (or possibly both), and which the forgivee is NOT entitled to and should not be done only because the forgiver...wants to make sure they deserve to be forgiven or whatever. Or even only just because the forgiver feels bad about it, especially because the forgivee may be using guilt to manipulate them into maintaining a relationship.

Nobody is entitled to forgiveness. Choosing whether to let someone stay in your life should be done based on what you think is healthiest and what seems right, not whether they "deserve" it or whether you'd want someone to do it for you. That leads to unhealthy relationships.

(I hope I'm wording myself right.)

[(Anonymous)]

"Immediately abandon" also suggests that OP doesn't stop to hear the other person's side of it

Dude. If you're being an abusive piece of shit, I don't care what "your side" of it is. You are out of my life, immediately, because I have no tolerance for abusive people.