fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #457 ]

[ SECRET POST #457 ]

⌈ Secret Post #457 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 15 pages, 340 secrets from Secret Submission Post #066.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 - too big ], [ 1 - empty comment ], [ 1 - what ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Obviously, at some point, we learned a translation for them or else we wouldn't KNOW what significance they have. And obviously being like "Sakura younger-girl who-I-am-familiar-with" wouldn't work so well, but a GOOD translator who didn't have canon nazi's breathing down their back could probably make something enjoyable that caught the nuisances. We do have a HUGELY varied language with tons of pet names, modifiers, and all sorts of things that can be used to clue you into these things.

However, since it'd have to be a good translator AND writer, I think I prefer them without even trying, because there's far too much room for fucking up, but it's not IMPOSSIBLE to do.

They used to omit them... and oh yeah, sometimes localize them to the point it vaguely resembled the original dialog. I'm not even going to touch back when Viz used to OMIT chapters because they felt it was too JAPANESE.

But the alternatives were pretty poor. That's why when they started to translate it more authentically, they left the honorifics in because there was no set meaning for them and they were important to interpersonal relationship and the characters' personality. The fans came only to expect them because they learn that they were important and expect them to be there. And that they were always there. A GOOD translator would leave them in instead taking them out because a GOOD translator would know that not everything can be translated correctly within a language, thus why translation is more of an art than science.

I think you missed my points. Yes there's a lot of bad examples. A lot. Which is why I think it's better that the industry standard is to leave them in.

However, someone with a good mastery of BOTH languages should be able to translate them. When you get down to it, by not translating the honorific they ARE not making a complete translation. It's just that it's a translation they can not make, because it's common knowledge, or they can add a handy dandy little guide in the beginning (And as I said before, probably a better thing). But someone who was good at the art of language could do it smoothly. Obviously they CAN be translated, as we all seem to be aware of what they mean. The knack would be working that into the text, instead of into a glossary in the front.

I'm pretty sure that people who are translating professional are very fluent in BOTH English and Japanese to even get the job (hell, a good number of the translators I've seen in graphic novels are Japanese). Hell, a very good number of people who scanlate have a good mastery of Japanese (and that they have English editors as well). They do leave translator's notes in their graphic novels. Before using the honorifics, they used to drop them out and make the character use their first names (which is not an accurate translation in the end and ignores why addressing someone is important in Japanese culture). Why? Because there is no clear definition most honorifics. We don't use much honorifics in American English, not to the extent of the Japanese. Very, very few attempted to do so otherwise, but failed miserably.

It's not like manga is a new thing in America, it been here for nearly twenty years, geez. If they can't do it by now, they never could.

You're still, I think, missing the point. There's a difference between being able to speak English fluently, which would be needed to translate, and being a master of the art of English. If every translator were the latter, they'd also be best selling novelist.

Historically there were times when we used names and titles similar to the Japanese, such as when the Ton was at it's height, and many of those words, though not in common use, are still recognizable to us. Yeah, it might be a little abnormal, but if it flows well...I don't get called Ms. Hanson often but I've only been called Hanson-San a few times, so really, in ENGLISH the former is less odd. And since you're translating it to English you should find the most fitting AND common, familiar terms. The person is pointing out that the second part is where the laziness is coming in. -San, -Chan, -Kun etc. are NOT common in our language, and the Translators are luck/lazy (I more see it as the former) that they don't have to deal with it, because it's general knowledge among their target audiences what they entail. There ARE translator who don't get to get away with that (in their defense, manga/anime translators also don't get anything but dialog to convey meaning, which makes it harder)

No, teacher isn't always switchable with Sensei, BUT someone who worked hard enough could find proper words to get the feel and meaning of it, and keep it in the flow of the story. They're saying the lazy is not doing as such.

Even if they were at one point of time, an equivalent to "-kun", "-chan" or whatever, it's not used at all in today's language and would look horribly awkward since even English speakers don't use it and would have to use an note anyway.

And they DO work hard and they DO have professional people who has to have a high mastery to be a professional translator. The reason they delete honorifics in the first place BECAUSE THERE IS NO ENGLISH EQUIVALENT. NONE. Zip. Nada. Zilch. without losing the original meaning.

Dear god, it's not like it's the first time that translators left Japanese words in. Like Japanese dishes or terms, they can be translated if they so pleased (Like my book on Shinsengumi left the markers for districts in of Kyoto in it). I'm not going through the various other languages that left the term in the original state. Like the Harry Potter book with their usage of British expressions when it could be replaced with American expressions despite have almost the same language.

You think it's sloppy, I think you're over exaggerating and overlooking the importance of addressing people in Japan. Despite it been in English, an translation doesn't need to be Americanized. And it's not like translators don't provide translation notes.

The fans don't get up in arms like you think. Viz removes the honorifics in some of their work and no one called for a witch burning or anything like that (well, they do and it's mostly because they can't edit thing worth a shit.) Even with the so called pursist in popular anime forum more often won't list the lack of honorifics in a list of problems with the American translations. So on, the fanbrats aren't that much of an influence as you like to think it is. Most of these companies done it on their OWN accord.

The fans don't get up in arms like you think.

You're a shining example. Assuredly.

And you obviously either haven't been in fandom enough, or go in very small circle to have not seen fans getting in kerfluffes over that. You speak like you've been around since before leaving in suffixes was rather common, but your lack of being aware of fandom then seems the opposite.

And you're still confusing TECHNICALLY knowing English with being creative in English. There's a difference...it's the difference between blue prints and a Monet. All translators know the language, they're not all creative with it.

And you underestimate English. It has one of the largest vocabulary, you could find words. Out of 995,112 a creative person with a wide vocabulary could find a fitting way to catch the nuiances and not sound archaic.

Meh, I don't waste my time with pitchforking and crying over that they omitted honorifics. Will I less of a good opinion if they omitted and use the character's first names instead of that? Yes. Like you think you think not taking honorifics is "sloppy". And I've been pretty involved in the anime fandom on th net since 1997. I do see a person here or there bitch about honorifics once in a while, but I never heard a movement that made a company add honorifics when they omitted them. They just kept them because the audience didn't mind them or have a positive response, so they stayed.

I think you're OVERESTIMATING English to be honest, and besides not everyone uses most of the words of the language anyway. Like how Japanese have about 50000 kanji to choose from about regularly only use around 3,000 or more regularly. Like I said, if you're going to use some archaic word that you will have to explain ANYWAY. So the point comes moot in the end.

English is just like other languages in that:

1) It can't translate every word in every language. For example, Del Rey's decision to keep "hitsuzen" in xxxHolic in Japanese because translating into fate or destiny would be wrong because "hitsuzen" doesn't exactly mean that. You have some bizarre idea that translators didn't mull over the decision to keep Japanese honorifics or not. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

2) Doesn't make a word we absolutely won't need. There wasn't any need for any honorifics outside Mr./Miss/Mrs./Ms., so we don't need any more. Have they been some other honorifics beside those? Maybe, but they're so antiquated, no one uses it anymore. It would be extremely odd if someone used an extremely antiquated term in English. Hell, I remember some conversation (who don't speak a lick of Japanese) get perplexed of one translation of a certain manga translating all the "-san" as Mr., finding it extremely formal then it wasn't the case.

I don't think you don't take account of the culture of English speaking countries either. The reason we have so few honorifics because we don't adopt the same attitudes about addressing people like some Asian culture, which is a really big deal for them. It's common to call someone by their first name or nickname, if their name has a common nickname, on the first meeting. Unless they're a strict teacher, doctor, or some lawyer. Hell, we even address our bosses by their first name most of the time. A long time ago, it was common to call people in a higher social status by "Miss", "Mr.", etc. But clearly we don't use that anyone unless we want to be extremely formal.

You keep on believing that they haven't tried alternatives after nearly 20 years. They did, and they were pretty retarded to say in the least.

Actually, I don't think any archaic English word would seem as odd to me being yelled across, say, my campus, as someone besides some Japanophile or my Japanese teacher yelling out for me in Japanese. And you missed the part where I pointed out, several times, a good writer could do it without being archaic.

A) I have a shit tons of respect for translator, particular those of XXholic/Tsubasa as they go into very illuminating detail about WHY they did things the way they did, and owned up to the Fai/Fye thing.

B) I assumed anime fans aren't as silly as you seem to think they are and would figure out the cultural difference without a glossary if they were written well. I assume someone would know if they were calling someone say, Madame, even though we don't commonly use it anymore in this language. I also think that's a talent that is rare in ANY translation (Writing around words that don't translate right), not just Japanese, and think that for manga they are smarter not to try to write around it. I just think that it could be done well with out it by a talented person. I hold nothing against the translators that it is their job to get the message across as cleanly and neatly as possible. But that doesn't means that a talented person couldn't do it. I also think you're getting wrapped up in finding a WORD to replace the words, as oppose to a phrase, sentence, or whatever may work for what ever situation. (I.e. Replacing Seishirou's use of -kun on Subaru with something along the lines of "He said his name in a mocking tone." Which, as I pointed out above wouldn't work so well in Manga, as they only have dialog. However, as I also pointed out, I am not an amazingly creative writer)

Think it's smarter=/= it not being able to be done. Also it being done badly before=/=it not being able to be done. If you've been involved in the fandom for so long, you'll know a lot of those previous effort weren't exactly quality, or being done to reach any high standard. (See "Bunny" to replace "Usagi-chan" in Sailor Moon)

However, you're really making a lot of uneducated biased assumptions, and coming off as, well, a bit obsessive over it having to only be ONE WAY EVER. I'm really tired of yelling at a brick wall of a "OMG they translated it wrong!" fanbrat, even if you do happen to be a pretty well written one.

Except the fact that you're ignoring that there's no English equivalent for most honorifics (you know, actually research on this like I did back in college. Yes, I actually researched it to understand honorifics better and part curiosity). I think you're downplaying most of these translators' skill (who have to have very fluent in both languages in the first place and yes, they usually test them out before hiring them [that I know that because I was interested of becoming a professional translator at one point]. Hell, a good number of translators are Japanese natives and have a linguistics background). Not mentioning there is usually a team helping out. The fact that even most Japanese literature would just drop the honorifics altogether, and some use the "everyone refers first name" route tells you something about why there aren't replacements for them.

I'm not making uneducated biases as much your making assumptions that it can be done in a "creative" way without even giving examples, actually endorsing using archaic words that you have to end up explaining anyway (and they have to really archaic going past Old English because there was very, very few outside royal titles and yes I had to read a good amount of literature in Old English), ignoring the cultural differences in both English and Japan and how that's reflected in the structure of the language (more specifically in honorifics), and ignoring that there has been efforts but they failed because it was more awkward than simply leaving it be and give a detail explanation on it and also give a glimpse on Japanese culture since the language is pretty crucial to it anyway.

If they want to do a more accurate translation, it's best to leave them in and explain their significance. They can leave them out if they so please, but dear god, don't replace them with awkward words either.

Nice calling me a fanbrat though seeing that you can debate without namecalling (or knowing what a fanbrat really is, I hope you don't call anyone who disagree with you that). Really a pity. I tired of trying to convince someone who refuse to listen why either.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #457 ]

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