fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3975 ]

[ SECRET POST #3975 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3975 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 30 secrets from Secret Submission Post #569.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Steve Rogers was right in Civil War. If I had never seen any of the movies, I'd think Tony was right. But as someone who has seen the movies, Steve is 100% right and Tony is an idiot and hypocrite.

-Why would anyone trust any governmental body to be in charge of the Avengers? Like, every other group that has been in charge of the Avengers has turned out evil.

-They bring up the body count from various events (Battle of New York, Sokovia [which was basically his fault], the Helicarrier crashes, the mission at the beginning of Civil War) as if it is a compelling argument. They amount to around 300 people killed. as opposed to you know, THE WHOLE FUCKING WORLD.

-Tony is for the accords because he is guilt tripped by a woman whose son died. What does he do? Recruit a minor and takes him across the world to fight in a battle without getting his guardian's permission.

-He kicks Bucky in the face (in suit) when Bucky is basically incapacitated.

-He was there when Bucky was taken in. So he knows that Bucky was going to be taken away (or killed) without a trial or due process.

And the most annoying.
-He argues that they can sign the Accords now and work to change them later. YOU ARE A BUSINESSMAN, WHY WOULD YOU EVER ARGUE THIS??? THIS IS WHY YOU NEED PEPPER TO BABYSIT YOU!

Agreed. Especially the last one. As a businessman, he should know that once you sign a contract, you can't modify it without signing a new contract and the other party also signing. And once the government has control, they aren't going to give it up. He really was an idiot.

Hell, as an intelligent adult he should know better than to sign a contract like that.

As a super casual moviegoer I sided with Iron Man cause I saw where he came from/his argument seemed compelling, and bringing up his dead parents was way low below the belt (I also never care much for Bucky, but I dunno if that matters much)

As a non-USian from a country that has had to deal with US's invasive international policy and influencing elections (so... The majority of countries on Earth) Steve's arguments reek of that.

But the bad guy was the one who brought up the parents?

I mean...the Avengers would have been under the control of the UN, so they'll still be doing things the UN wanted. Hell, this would make it even more likely that they would be involved in actual politics instead of just beating up a bad guy who has a doomsday device.

Just- his arguments and justifications reeked of (and sounded really close to) that America Knows Best toxic policy, just change a 'Captain' to that phrase for this scenario.

And the last political unrest due to US meddling is recent and my country's still dealing with the ugly aftermath and it hits too close to home to not make me bristle at what Captain America was saying.

I mean, it's not that I don't see where you're coming from (I'm Vietnamese), but I think the actual events of the movie prove that this isn't the case.

Team Iron Man is the pro-government side in this. The man running point on the Accords, Ross, is the in-universe US Secretary of State. He has a black site prison in the middle of the ocean where prisoners are taken and detained without trial. All of this sounds mighty familiar, don't you think?

In fact, watching Civil War, I was actually bothered by how little involvement the US government seemed to have in the Sokovian Accords debacle. Considering that the Avengers are based on US soil and that most of the members are US citizens (Rhodey is even a commissioned Air Force Colonel), I felt that the US would've had a real interest in undermining the UN. If anything, they would have been using their Security Council veto power to fight the Accords and cutting a deal to keep the Avengers under their control. Maybe the revelation of Ross's offshore prison is the film's acknowledgement of that.

Honestly, you could had stopped after the first one because that alone is reason enough to side with Cap. How could you trust that the government still didn't have Hydra agents that were very good at keeping their heads down and biding their time in it?

Right? We know of at least two government officials who were Hydra. Who knows how many there are in other countries?

The fact that the accords were spearheaded by GENERAL FUCKING ROSS should also give an indicator to how not good they'd end up being.

Frankly if they'd wanted it to seem more neutral than they were Martin Freeman's character should have been at the helm of it, and that isn't because I wanted more Martin Freeman, it's because every time I saw General Fucking Ross talking about the accords all I could think was how anyone was actually listening to him. The man who hunted Bruce for years because of what he was. Yes, he is a reasonable and in no way shady person.

Edited 2017-11-22 01:59 (UTC)

That is why Hulk wasn't around. If Bruce knew Tony was siding with General Ross, he'd hulkslap him through a wall.

God I can just imagine how hurt Bruce would be at people siding with Ross, like the man who ruined his goddamn life and they're agreeing with him?

Tbh I also think they didn't have him in it because the premise would make even less sense if Bruce was there.

Re: What fandom opinions do you hold that will never change?

kaijinscendre - 2017-11-22 02:13 (UTC) - Expand

Re: What fandom opinions do you hold that will never change?

nightscale - 2017-11-22 02:15 (UTC) - Expand

So much this. Okay, I'll accept that Bruce isn't there, and maybe we can pretend that he never told Tony about Ross (which I highly doubt!), but even with all that... TONY HAS MET ROSS. They were together in the end credit scene of Incredible Hulk, right in the aftermath of the Harlem battle. Tony should know so much more about Ross's shadiness than he seems to in CW.

It's a crying shame that the movie stopped making any sense at all shortly after that conversation, including spectacular plot-driven stupidity by both Tony and Steve.

ia 100%. Like, they tried SO HARD to make Tony and Natasha seem reasonable. But who the fuck could possibly think their side is reasonable in the context of the rest of the MCU?

We've had like 37 goddamn MCU movies all focused around how the govt is incompetent and shitty and full of Hydra agents and can't be trusted.

Natasha was probably the weirdest one. Why would she ever trust the government??

Re: What fandom opinions do you hold that will never change?

soldatsasha - 2017-11-22 03:01 (UTC) - Expand

Seriously, where were the lawyers??

I think both sides had their share of "wrong," but Steve was the more in the right of the two.

OK, T'Challa was probably the least wrong of the whole crew, because he didn't really give a fuck about the contracts, he was just there for revenge - and promptly backed off once he found out the truth.

I've never really liked Tony as a character, he's just... too much. But yeah, there's not much question he was wrong and dumb in Civil War.

That's what you get when you take a comic plot that relies heavily on the conflict between masses of potentially dangerous mutants running around unsupervised vs. personal rights of those mutants to be treated like everyone else and take out all the mutants. I think Tony is wrong in the comics as well but his reasoning much less dumb and contrived there.

Re: What fandom opinions do you hold that will never change?

(Anonymous) - 2017-11-22 08:11 (UTC) - Expand

Re: What fandom opinions do you hold that will never change?

fishnchips - 2017-11-22 14:24 (UTC) - Expand

The general problem with Civil War was that they tried to do the Civil War plot despite 90 % of the original conflict (a whole population of potentially dangerous mutants) missing. Which turned the supposed "Civil War" into a matter of "disagreement within a tiny group of people with too huge egos".

However, I think the main point where Steve isn't 100% right is where it came to the way he did things. "Oh no collateral damage is bad, let me just bash in the heads of these agents who are just doing their jobs to save my bro who is totally misunderstood and doesn't deserve this because he was brainwashed and was only doing his job!". Bit of hypocrisy there.
And quite honestly, someone killing my parents in cold blood, brainwashed or not, would piss me off as well, especially if someone I considered a friend tries to protect the killer.
But that's a personal matter and doesn't have anything to do with a civil war. So I generally agree with your other points.

To be fair, Steve was all for bringing Bucky in to get help. He started bashing heads in because the...cops? Soldiers? Had orders to kill Bucky on sight. And I thought Steve knew collateral damage was a bad but unavoidable event.

Re: What fandom opinions do you hold that will never change?

fishnchips - 2017-11-22 06:25 (UTC) - Expand

Agreed on every point. I think I've been with you on this since day one so eternal comrades we will be in the FS War of the Sokovian Accords.

I do think the movie tried to show us that both Steve and Tony had their share of hypocrisy and hidden agenda... but when Steve's hypocrisy and agenda stem from wanting to prevent an innocent man from being killed and Tony's stem from... his issues, it's reaaally hard not to take a side =\

Why didn't Tony talk to his teammates first before springing the Accords on them?

Why did the Avengers only have 3 days(???) to read and decide on a novel-length document that over 200 countries had somehow managed to agree upon without their knowledge?

And why do so many people (okay, YouTube commenters) seem to think Iron Man was somehow justified in his attempted murder of Bucky in the climax? First of all, I disagree and am a little offended by the suggestion that just about anyone would just fly into a violent irrational rage in an emotional situation like that, especially given the extenuating circumstances that Tony was aware of. Second, could that whole set-up with Zemo sitting behind bulletproof glass showing them the footage have been any more OBVIOUSLY A TRAP? I have a hard time believing even a teenage superhero on their first outing would fall for it, let alone a grown-ass man with extensive experience in the field. You know how he made Steve give up the shield in the end? I was thinking Tony should consider giving up the suit, because a man with shitty perception and irrational bouts of rage like him should definitely not be strapping on superpowered iron suits and blowing terrorists.

I've never liked Tony but his bullshit in Civil War was next fucking level.

He's in a team full of people who all have more experience with the military, war, and the government than he does, but he's totally allowed to make a decision for all of them without consulting them and if they don't think it's a good one then they're the ones who are wrong?

>:[

Being surprised that Steve's oldest friend, who fought with him in an actual war, and then was "dead" but actually being tortured and brainwashed to kill people against his will, and has now started to remember his old life IS MORE IMPORTANT TO STEVE THAN TONY is fucking ridiculous.

Haaaaaaate.

Yeah, I never understood why he thinks it would be weird Steve would choose Bucky over Tony. Even in the Captain America EXHIBIT they make a point to mention they are best friends since childhood.

It's not like Steve and Tony became instant best friends or something, either.

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