fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4041 ]

[ SECRET POST #4041 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4041 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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03. https://i.imgur.com/MPdttxe.png
[It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia; linked for illustrated? nudity / OP warned for NSFW]

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10. [repeat]

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11. [SPOILER for Stranger Things, season 2]

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12. [WARNING for discussion of sexual assault]

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13. [WARNING for discussion of sexual assault]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #578.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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So much victim blaming in thread, people implying "Bitch shouldn't have gone to his house, she knew what she was getting into, why didn't she leave?" unpleasantness in this thread. Probably because of lots of clueless dudes here who have had the same experience with a woman, but don't want to admit it (it's always, always easier to blame 'the slut') It also disturbs me, but it's completely unsurprising how women throw Grace under the bus because "she wasn't raped like I was! Just say no!" It's sadly unsurprising how women like Grace are scorned because we're conditioned to validate men's needs and excuse them, let them get away with everything, all that matters is them getting pussy, no matter how it happens. We're conditioned to blame women for being 'slutty' and 'a bitch' if she's giving 'mixed signals' even after stories upon stories of women saying No, then immediately getting raped, beaten, killed or shunned by guys who were so nice, the nicest guys ever. You can never know until you've been in that situation. I have been in that situation where I liked him, didn't want to go all the way right away but eventually did the first night because he was so persistent (and I thought he would hate me or say bad things about me if I didn't), and felt horrible afterward. And I have also been yes, actually and legally Raped. The former is not a white and black situation and going "stop whining and pull up your big girl panties" while ignoring men pressuring women, saying 'eh boys will be boys he was an asshole but whatever' and excusing them is just depressing.

Men are conditioned to get off no matter what, women are conditioned to not 'rock the boat' and just give in already, do it so he likes you, he's a good guy so when you say "We're going a little fast" maybe that means he will slow down (but then it gets to the point where he's pulling off your clothes, like with Grace.) Maybe Grace stayed because she thought, him being Woke, he would cut that shit out after his first attempt. And the 'well she's an adult and she blew him, so what's the problem?" mentality disturbs me. Does blowjob = automatic green light to stick it in her vag? It's just sad how many men are out there who only care about their orgasms, to the point where they'll ignore a woman looking nervous, pushing his hand away when he puts it on her dick multiple times, and generally ignoring all her nonverbal cues that maybe, just MAYBE, she wants to just make out or only wants him to eat her out, but not PIV. And people not seeing anything wrong with him practically chasing her around her apartment, people not saying "Uh why didn't he tell her he wanted PIV sex, if she didn't there's the door?" after multiple signals, is just... very wearying.

Idk what it is about guys who get off on humping unresponsive or nervous-looking women (oh wait, I do know, it's porn), but there's something deeply wrong with society and it won't get fixed until men start looking at women as actual people.

I was with you in the first paragraph, but then it started turning into a rant about how much it's men's fault, and how men don't give a shit about women's comfort/discomfort.

I agree that society needs to stop conditioning certain behavior of both men and women. I think that at any time, if a person doesn't feel right about where a date is going, they should feel free to speak up without being punished for it. Notice I said person. Not because I have any solid proof that men get pressured into sex or assaulted as much as women, but because when it comes to looking at a group as actual people, it goes both ways.

NAYRT

I think that at any time, if a person doesn't feel right about where a date is going, they should feel free to speak up without being punished for it.

Well, sure, but that doesn't mean that, if they fail to affirmatively speak up, anything that happens subsequently is obviously reasonable. I mean, if person A is actively trying to convince person B to have sex with them, I think person A has a much bigger moral responsibility for communication, as the person who's initiating, than person B does. They have a responsibility to be certain that there's consent.

Not because I have any solid proof that men get pressured into sex or assaulted as much as women, but because when it comes to looking at a group as actual people, it goes both ways.

Sure, it's useful to talk about it that way, but it can also be useful to be aware of what's actually happening, and what kind of gender relations actually exist in society, if that has an effect on it and if it is weighted by gender.

Probably because of lots of clueless dudes here who have had the same experience with a woman,

I'm pretty sure that a substantial majority of the posters on this board are women, so I'm not sure how big a role this is actually playing.

I agree with everything else in the post, pretty much, except that I might quibble a little about how much porn matters.

Thank you, thank you, and thank you. I feel like one of the problems is that while the "no means no" message may have been understood by some men, they then take it to mean that anything other than a screaming "no" and a slap to the face qualifies as consent. Women have been conditioned to not rock the boat and be polite, which leads to trying to give non-confrontational and non-verbal signals that men won't pick up on because 'well, she didn't actually say no.'

Dudes, body language is a thing. Even if she hasn't said no, if you're chasing her around the apartment, please take the hint.

she let him go down on her. he wasn't chasing her around the apartment. "non-verbal cues" means fucking nothing; what was she actually doing?

"conditioning" means nothing either. use your words. i'm a woman and i've never in my life felt pressured to "be polite" if i didn't want to fuck, and yeah, not every dude i've been with was okay with a simple "no", but i held my ground and got my fucking point across while they got all pissy and stormed out like i should be begging them to stay. who cares? i don't want guys like that around in the first place, gtfo. and on the other hand, i've had guys thank me for being open and clear with them! why is that so hard?

fuck hints. fuck "non-verbal cues." fuck this disgusting infantilization of women that removes any and all responsibility for their own well-being from their own shoulders.

The funny thing is: I found most of the people who are so obsessed with the idea that women are conditioned to behave a certain way as to not hurt men's precious feelings and are supposedly constantly terrified of men and what they might do to them 24/7 are often on the side of more radical feminism which... is kind of funny because that whole idea of women being so feeble minded and weak compared to men is so immensely anti-feminist.

Agreed. I thought feminism was the idea of equality between men and women. But the way some feminists these days are painting women as helpless and feeble-minded compared to strong-willed and smart men, it reminds me of my talk with a Saudi, who insisted that guardianship over women in Saudi Arabia is for the women's own good. How am I supposed to think the Saudi's are wrong, while also believing that women are indeed incapable of acting without help and guidance from men?

They are not radical feminists. They are as liberal as they come. Tumblr may talk about smashing the patriarchy but it means nothing because a world without a patriarchy would have women acting very differently too. But these women want to keep doing whatever they're doing, except be above criticism.

These women need a good old-fashioned consciousness-raising about their own behavior to see how it supports the patriarchy.

i'm a woman and i've never in my life felt pressured to "be polite" if i didn't want to fuck

It's good that this has been your experience, but it has very much not been many other women's experience. Other women have felt immense, unceasing pressure to be polite and spare other's feelings (especially men's feelings). That's just the reality of the situation, and you being hostile to these women for no good reason whatsoever is not going to change that.

Yes, women feel social pressure. Men feel social pressure as well. But no one frets over men feeling pressure, because everyone understand that men are strong, independent, and don't need to rely on women for help. Are women not strong? Are women incapable of acting in their own self-interest, without relying on male guidance and protection? Are women lesser than men?

It would definitely help if everyone would quit blatantly ignoring the other side's points. There's truth to the "social pressure" point, and there's truth to the "women are/should be autononmous beings" point. Clinging to fear and victimhood has never solved the issue, but then, judgment and victim-blaming has never made anyone brave enough to step away from such things.

The thing is in this particular case: There is no actual "victim" to blame unless you have this obsession with victimhood and "all women poor oppressed flowers" thinking. To everyone not subscribing to this POV, the whole thing was a bad date based on the miscommunication of two adults who were both not very smart about things.

I agree it sounded like a bad date with poor communication. But ignoring what might have led a person to feel like they couldn't express themselves has never been helpful. Social pressure is real. An upbringing where you feel you have no choice but to please others and go along with everything or be punished is real. And for the record, no, I don't blame Aziz for that.

i'm a woman and i've never in my life felt pressured to "be polite" if i didn't want to fuck

Congratulations on your immense amounts of privilege

Signed: a rape victim who thinks you're disgusting and sexist in a very awful way to think everything is so black and white

Women have been conditioned to not rock the boat and be polite, which leads to trying to give non-confrontational and non-verbal signals that men won't pick up on because 'well, she didn't actually say no.' Dudes, body language is a thing.

NAYRT, but thiiiisss.

It will never fail to amaze me (and piss me the fuck off) how many men out there will take anything short of outright hostility as women saying "keep trying." I mean there are a lot of nonverbal signals that are pretty obvious and by all rights should be enough, but even beyond that, I've had guys take actual verbal rejections as "keep trying" as well. I mean, it's too the point where, for quite a few guys, there is no middle ground at all between "You didn't sound like you really meant that rejection so I'm gonna keep trying," and "Calm down, bitch, I was just flirting."

It would be hilarious if it weren't so awful.

Oh for fuck's sake... stop pretending that the "all women want jerks" and "tell them no but secretly mean yes" and "playing hard to get" are not massive parts of "flirt-culture" that get propagated by women themselves all the fucking time.

Because it's ALL DA WIMMINZ FAULTS WAAAAH

They're just LEADING GUYS ON ALL THE TIME

There's a difference between playfully flirting (which has matching body language, ffs) and actually being uncomfortable (completely different bod language)

I can't tell if you're too dumb to understand the point or if you're doing it on purpose - in any case, stop throwing a tantrum.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

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