[ SECRET POST #4057 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4057 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 38 secrets from Secret Submission Post #581.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

The problem is that what most people consider "basically nothing," some people will take grave offense at and send you nasty messages for not warning. So, instead of trying to figure out whether or not you really need to warn for smoking and drinking in a fic about adult characters who smoke and drink in canon, or for mentioning the non-violent death of an adult character's childhood pet, or for an unrequited crush, selecting "choose not to warn" means the same thing as a "no lifeguard: swim at your own risk" sign on a pool.

With the possible exception of major character death, most of the other common triggers shouldn't be coming out of left field anyway. That's just shitty writing for shock value.

OP sort of

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, I agree with your whole first paragraph. I realize why a lot of authors tag the way they do. I'm also not railing against them, as you'll notice. My comment was simply with regards to a particular flaw in the tagging system and how that flaw can be frustrating, and how I wish people would tag - not "you're all assholes if you don't tag it this way."

With the possible exception of major character death, most of the other common triggers shouldn't be coming out of left field anyway.

Yeah, Character Death is the worst when it comes to not tagging, because there's no warning at all. But I've read a fair few fics that ended up having heavy noncon in them where there was very little indication of where it was going. And yeah, maybe that means the writing isn't the best, but that's kind of neither here nor there.

Re: OP sort of

[(Anonymous)]

DA

It's not a flaw. It just doesn't work the way that you personally would like it to work.

[(Anonymous)]

Da- If you have commonly triggering content in your fic and your tag isn't doing anything to warn people about it, that is a flaw.

This is fandom. We tag for noncon. We tag for underage. And if we don't tag them specifically we tag them generally so that people know to avoid if they want to/need to. This is basic fandom etiquette. o_O

[(Anonymous)]

CNTW warns people that your fic may have triggering content in it and they shouldn't click it if they have triggers they need to avoid.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, but when only 5% of fics with the CNTW tag actually HAVE any remotely triggering content in them, the CNTW tag becomes nearly meaningless. That has been the entire point of this secret. Literally, the whole point.

[(Anonymous)]

It's not meaningless. It still means click at your own risk.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you for clearing that up. I suspected this was really about you thinking you're entitled to be able to read every possible fic that might interest you and that's what makes the tag "meaningless" and now I know for sure.

[(Anonymous)]

"Entitled" seems like a really strong word to be using here

[(Anonymous)]

This is possibly the least hyperbolic use of the word entitled in the history of fandom secrets.

[(Anonymous)]

It's not meaningless! It means, very clearly, that the author is choosing not to warn!

[(Anonymous)]

Remotely triggering to you. I know this comes as a shock, but people that aren’t you read AO3 and you don’t get to decide what triggers are valid for them. You really are coming off as massively entitled with your “people need to specifically warn for my triggers and stop muddying the waters by warning for stuff that doesn’t bother me” attitude.

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT

I think the point shouldn't be about what does or doesn't trigger people. The point should be about things that are archive warnings, versus things that aren't. If you don't have stuff that would merit an archive warning, then you should just be using the No Archive Warnings tag. If there's other stuff that might be triggering, you can tag for that individually. But it doesn't make sense, conceptually, for Choose Not To Warn to be some kind of overarching "maybe something might trigger you, i don't know" catch-all category.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

But what about people who aren't sure whether or not something in their fic merits an archive warning, or people who simply don't like dealing with warnings and choose to sidestep the hassle by using Choose Not To Warn on all of their fics? Those are both valid usages of the tag, and just because it may inconvenience some readers doesn't mean authors need to change the way they're using the warning system. People who use CNTW for "no good reason" (i.e. on fluffy inoffensive fics) are using it in a way that conforms to AO3's rules, regardless of what you or OP think. CNTW has always meant that there may be triggering content, not that there definitely is. It's not just a way for people to coyly use trigger warnings without using trigger warnings.

[(Anonymous)]

There's no such thing as a perfect system, right? Nothing that anyone suggests is going to meet every use case perfectly. I think that people who aren't sure whether or not something in their fic merits an archive warning should just do the best they can. I don't think the hassle of archive warnings is really as much as people make it out to be. I think the advantage of clarity and usability outweighs considerations like that. I also understand that no one's breaking any rules and I don't expect that anyone will actually change their mind. That's just how the world is.

[(Anonymous)]

Surely saying "this might have triggers" is doing better than saying "this doesn't have triggers" if the fic turns out to actually contain triggers.

But it's not just people who are uncertain. Some people just don't like using warnings, and this system allows them to not use warnings while not leaving people who need warnings out in the cold.

[(Anonymous)]

Surely saying "this might have triggers" is doing better than saying "this doesn't have triggers" if the fic turns out to actually contain triggers.

But I think this is one of the fundamental problems with the system the way that it is now. IMO "No Archive Warnings Apply" shouldn't be taken to mean that there are no triggers in the fic. Rather, "No Archive Warnings Apply" should be taken to mean that no archive warnings apply. "Archive Warnings" is a different, and much more specific, category than just talking about all triggers in general. And that's a large part of the reason why I think it would be more useful if used in that way. I think that's a useful distinction that would simplify things enormously for everyone.

Some people just don't like using warnings, and this system allows them to not use warnings while not leaving people who need warnings out in the cold.

Sure, and that's why I acknowledge it's probably never going to actually work the way that I'd like it to, even though I think it would ultimately make much more sense and be generally better.

[(Anonymous)]

When I said triggers, I meant archive warnings. Saying "this might contain archive warnings" is better than saying "no archive warnings apply" if it turns out that you were mistaken and archive warnings do actually apply.

[(Anonymous)]

So the concern is specifically with stories that are edge cases for the archive warnings?

I don't have a problem with people erring on the side of caution in cases like that. I also think that's a long way away from the idea that you need to tag with "Choose Not To Warn" for every fic because you can never predict what's going to trigger something. Archive warning edge cases aren't really the thing that I have a problem with.

[(Anonymous)]

It's not for you to say what warnings other people should put on their fic, as long as they're accurate and abide by AO3 rules. Saying "If you don't have stuff that would merit an archive warning, then you should just be using the No Archive Warnings tag" is being entitled. You are not the supreme ruler of AO3. People are allowed to tag the way they want, not the way you want them to. You are not in charge of other people's fic. I keep repeating this because you don't seem to get it.

"But it doesn't make sense, conceptually, for Choose Not To Warn to be some kind of overarching "maybe something might trigger you, i don't know" catch-all category."

Maybe it doesn't make sense TO YOU. People use Choose Not to Warn because they do not wish to put warnings on their fic. That's all. That's all you get. Stop insisting that other people change their tagging to suit you personally. AO3 is not your private archive. If you can't deal with fic that doesn't warn for everything potentially triggering, then stick to the fic that has warnings. CNTW is a clear indication that the author has decided not to do that.

You also seem to be assuming that the way your fandom does things is universal (and the way everyone should do things), but that's simply not true. Different fandoms and fandom spaces often have different customs and etiquette, and that's okay! The solution is not to demand that everyone do it your way.

[(Anonymous)]

First of all, I would just like to reiterate that I am not the only anon who has been making these arguments in this thread. I haven't said anything about how any particular fandom of mine has done anything at all, and you may be repeating what you're saying but that doesn't mean that you've been repeating it to me.

Second, I don't see how it's "entitled". Can we please stop using that word here? As far as I can see, this is a discussion about the proper use of tags. It's no more entitled to have an opinion about how tags should be used than it is to have an opinion about the proper usage of a word.

Third: I don't expect that anyone will actually change the way that they tag fics. People are clearly invested in using the system this way, they clearly have various objections to the idea of tagging fics in a more discrete way, they're very committed to not using warnings, and none of that is likely to change at any point in the future. I'd prefer it if they did change, and I'm trying to articulate why that is and why I think it would be better if people didn't use it that way. And I would also hope that I can make it a little easier to understand where some of the other anons that you've apparently been arguing with have been coming from. But I don't expect any active change to come, which is why I've tried to stay out of the thread before my previous post, but it just seemed like there were a lot of crossed wires in the conversation.

I hope that helps clear some things up.

[(Anonymous)]

Expecting people to change the meaning of an established tag to suit your specific reading preferences without regard for how this negatively affects them or other readers is outrageously, extravagantly entitled. Own your entitlement. Denying how entitled you are at this point of the discussion only outs you as a troll or someone desperately in need of treatment for a cluster B personality disorder. You are so entitled that rich white men across the globe are in awe of your staggering sense of entitlement.

[(Anonymous)]

Denying how entitled you are at this point of the discussion only outs you as a troll or someone desperately in need of treatment for a cluster B personality disorder.

I would like to say for the third time in this thread that the assumptions that you're making based on the belief that only one anon has disagreed with you in this thread are incorrect.

I don't expect that anyone else will change their behavior. I wish they would, and I think it would be a basically better system for everyone if they did, but I don't expect that they will.

I'm not even sure what else to say.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

It wouldn't be better for everyone. Certainly not for the people who dislike your ideas for an improved system, or the people who don't like using warnings.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

The other anon who replied to you was not me, and I don't know what their issue is.