[ SECRET POST #593 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #593 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 09 pages, 215 secrets from Secret Submission Post #085.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: 187

[(Anonymous)]

You've heard of the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the European Witch Hunts, right? Then you've got spreading disease with missionaries all over the world and screwing up people's local native traditions, being one of the most powerful forces for oppression of women, as well as a tool for the powerful to maintain their power over everyone underneath them... I could go on and on and on.

Re: 187

[ketchupblood.livejournal.com]

Because before Christianity, no one oppressed women, correct? And the powerful didn't stay powerful?

I'll admit that it was a tool, but that's because people took the religion and twisted it to use as a means to an end. I will admit that a lot of horrible things were done in the name of the church, and if you were saying that the church was an active force for violence for much of its existence, I probably wouldn't argue with you, but that isn't what you said. What you said was that a religion--a set of beliefs none of which condone violence against any group, except perhaps hypocrites--created evil.

As for the missionaries, I can only say that evil implies a certain amount of intent, and the intent was good even if you look at it now as unwarranted.

Re: 187

[(Anonymous)]

I said Christianity. I meant exactly that: the institute of the Church, and all the forms it has split into.

I didn't say no one oppressed women before Christianity. I said Christianity has been the most powerful force supporting and motivating the oppression of women over the last 2000 years. I could be fair and knock off 500 for the gradual spread of the power of the Church.

Re: 187

[ketchupblood.livejournal.com]

That isn't Christianity, though. The institute is a bunch of corrupt, old, white guys taking advantage of a very large following of people who will believe what they say. Christianity is a religion, and, like all religions, it's just a set of beliefs.

Also, you are completely ignoring more than half of the Eurasian continent right there. I promise you that the church was never a powerful force oppressing much of anything in most of Asia.


...I just realized that you're probably a troll. Way to go self.

Re: 187

[(Anonymous)]

Next time I make a secret, I'll give it footnotes.

You are overlooking the whole of the British Empire, and the Christian West's economic influence which caused so many wars all over Asia.

That is not to say there haven't been any other negative forces, but no one single other one of the same size.

I'm not a troll. Philosophers have written books saying much the same thing, my opinion isn't even that unusual.

Re: 187

[(Anonymous)]

Right, let's just forget about Fundamentalist Islam and that whole thing where they cut off the hands of women who wear nail polish, or the feet of women who show their ankles. I mean certainly, they're not oppresive to women at all. Especially not when they forbid women to go anywhere without a male relative, or to see a male doctor, but then forbid women from becoming doctors.

And it's most certainly not oppressive to women at all to refuse to accept an allegation of rape unless there are five male witnesses to it. Except, you know, the sort of man who would witness a rape and testify that it was rape would probably try and stop it.

I mean, it's not like they didn't have a woman lashed recently for being raped, because she had gone out without a male relative and thus had invited the trouble upon herself.

Nope, that's not more oppressive than Christianity.

Re: 187

[(Anonymous)]

Did I say, anywhere, that Fundamentalist Islam was okay?

It hasn't had anything so like as big a reach, influence or impact as the Christian Church over the last 2000 years. That is all and nothing more was implied in what I've said.

You are a group of hysterical overreacting whaawhaas who should stop projecting and start reading.

Re: 187

[(Anonymous)]

Richard Dawkins's inaccurate and sloppily-researched tirades are to blame for a lot of the misinformation out there....including a lot of the nonsense you are spouting.

The King James edition of the Bible was responsible for a great deal of the spread of literacy. People could read things in their own language; books weren't confined to an elite caste and a tongue no one spoke any longer.

Much of the nursing up until the last century was done by nuns. Where do you think the symbolism of the Red Cross comes from?

I'd blame imperialism and power-hungry monarchs for the spread of disease, not the missionaries who went in after the conquistadors.

You're oversimplifying and scapegoating to the point of nonsensicality.

Re: 187

[rhube.livejournal.com]

I do hate having Richard Dawkins on my side, in much the same way that most Christians probably hate the crazy Christian fundementalists for giving each other a bad name.

There's so much logic fail on both sides of this debate, and by that I mean both this thread, and the debate in general.

Re: 187

[sox-4-puppets.livejournal.com]

Okay, there is so much wrong with your reply here, I'll only single out one.

OPPRESSION OF WOMEN IS NOT CHRISTIANITY. Jesus, you know, the dude it's BASED on? Was one of THE leading feminists of his time. He had women disciples, followers, even MARRIED ones and God forbid, A PROSTITUTE that became an apostle!

The oppression of women came from the cardinals of the CATHOLIC church, who, in an effort to keep women out of the priesthood, made up all sorts of crap and it snowballed. REAL christianity is actually a freer of women, because Christ is "no respecter of persons" And God sees us as 'NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE'.. geesh, study something before you spout off at the mouth.

Men are imperfect. But blaming Christianity for all mankind's ills is just ignorant. Does Christianity keep women in burkas in the middle east? Does it promote the class system in India which causes people to starve and die of treatable disease? Ever hear of Mother Teresa? She lived in Calcutta FIGHTING that until she died. uuuuugh ignorant fanbrat.

Re: 187

[(Anonymous)]

I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS. I said it was the major force behind oppression of women for the last 2000. I was, as I have said many times, speaking of the Church, of CHristianity as an institution, a political force.

Mother Teresa also didn't treat those diseased people, she nursed them while they died, and then when she was ill she flew back home for quality medical care on a first class jet.

The more you know.

Re: 187

[(Anonymous)]

Where are you getting this foolishness? O_O I'm really curious. Besides Dawkins and Pullman.

Mother Teresa didn't treat diseased people herself because she did not have a medical degree. She nursed them, and left the treatment to the doctors she hired...which is the medically responsible thing to do.

She also founded homes for the homeless, prostitutes who wanted out of the life, orphans, drug addicts, the dying, and, in the 80s home for AIDS sufferers whose families had kicked them out.

What a terrible person. /sarcasm

Re: 187

[justaminuet.livejournal.com]

...and God forbid, A PROSTITUTE that became an apostle!

Just jumping in. While I agree with everything you're saying, just want to point out that Mary Magdalene was, in fact, not a prostitute. The "prostitute" (which was actually an adulteress, not a whore) in the bible that Jesus saved is in fact never named, and is not Mary Magdalene. The blending of Mary Magdalene, Mary of Bethany, the woman who annointed Jesus' feet, and the adulteress can all be traced back to Pope Gregory I, who decided, for whatever reason, that this was a perfectly good and acceptable idea. Years later, the Catholic Church renounced the misrepresentation of the four separate women.

Magdalene was actually a woman who Jesus cured of seven demons. Most biblical historians think this to mean that she had a mental illness, most likely schizophrenia. She was also one of his most trusted and loyal apostles, and one of the last to leave his side after he was crucified.

Um, end history lesson! ^_^;

Re: 187

[megkips.livejournal.com]

Thank you, couldn't have said it better myself! In addition, the story of the woman caught in adultery isn't in our earliest copies of the Gospels, it seems that it was added in later, first in the margins of copies and then into the text itself, presumably by a scribe who thought the margin note was a part of the text.

Re: 187

[llivla.livejournal.com]

OMIGOD I LOVE YOU.

Mary Magdalene is my patron saint, and I ate up all the (little) information I could find on her like candy when I was little. I was about to get indignant and go SHEWASN'TAPROSTITUTE but you, oh you beat me to it and that makes me so happy, because I've never had anyone know that except for me (and the books, duh). I even talked back to my priest arguing that the seven demons were not greed, lust, etc, but probably epilespy (where it would definitely look like she was possessed) or a disorder like schizophrenia.

;LKDAJF;SD I LOVE YOU AGAIN. ....BYE.

Re: 187

[malik-chan.livejournal.com]

Nowhere in the Bible does it mention that Mary Magdalene was a whore. That was made up by the heads of the church to keep women "in their place."

Re: 187

[justaminuet.livejournal.com]

...What?! Please, read the above. It was made up by one person. And it wasn't to "keep women in their place." While Western figures followed this sermon (and some still do so), the Catholic Church itself never advocated it, and later on it was the heads (as in multiple) of the church who outright renounced Pope Gregory I's amalgamation of the four women.

Re: 187

[tacky-tramp.livejournal.com]

Arguing about what is and is not "real Christianity" is pointless.

Also, since when was Mother Theresa fighting against the caste system? I thought she was just caring for -- and preaching at -- the poor.

Re: 187

[(Anonymous)]

From somebody who's just been lurking and following this convo...

Arguing about what is and is not "real Christianity" is pointless.

God, yes. It's beginning to seem like like sometimes that word is used to mean "an ideal abstract notion that was exactly what Jesus meant really but has never actually existed."

There are practicing Christians today who passionately believe that Christianity means hating homosexuals, oppressing women and anti-Semitism. There are also practicing Christians who passionately believe Christianity means tolerance to other sexualities, religions and the equality of women. Christianity is made of all these people. It's impossible to separate Christians from Christianity so cleanly, especially during periods of history where everybody being spoken about probably truly believed in Jesus Christ as God.

Re: 187

[rhube.livejournal.com]

'A PROSTITUTE that became an apostle'

That one just popped out on me, and I felt compelled to point out that she wasn't a prostitute. That was a different Mary, it was just convenient for the church to confuse the two in the public consciousness so that it was easier to dismiss and suppress her gospel.

Not saying that all Christians are misogynists - that's just such a blatatently stupid thing to say, but some have been. Part of the misrepresentation of Mary Magdeline was that there was a movement to suppress the proto-feminist teachings of Christ. the whole situation is FAR too complex to start throwing around generalisations either way.

Re: 187

[(Anonymous)]

Blaming all of Chrisiantiy for the Witch Hunts makes as much sense as blaming all of Paganism for feeding people to lions. In other words, it doesn't.

An interesting note, also: it was the imperialists and fighting force who came in and "conquered". Many of the missionaries worked hard to try to record native traditions before they disappeared. Missionaries urged many South American tribes to record their languages and history on codices.

Imperialism is bad, no doubt about it. All of it. But the missionaries were cultural damage control at the same time that they worked to convert people...it was the secular part of the invasion force who were the ones spreading most of the venereal disease, boozing and wenching it up.

The Vikings did the same thing. So did the Celts...or can you only look at 1900 years of history at once?

Because there were no invasions before Christ was born, right? What Roman empire? What Egyptian dynasties?

Study archaeology. The moar you know.

Re: 187

[(Anonymous)]

it was the imperialists and fighting force who came in and "conquered".

And where did they learn the values that took them there? Church.

The Vikings did the same thing. So did the Celts...or can you only look at 1900 years of history at once?

I have never once said that other groups and cultures have not committed atrocities or waged wars. I was talking about the last 2000 years and Christianity because those were the last 2000 years, and those were the 2000 years relevant to the secret.

I'm sorry that's hard for people to follow.

Re: 187

[(Anonymous)]

And where did they learn the values that took them there? Church.

No, sweetie. Kings. Monarchies. Power-hungry elite castes. The concept of empire...all of which predate Christianity.

I mentioned the Romans, the Celts, the Vikings, and the Egyptians to demonstrate that the things you are blaming Christianity for existed long before the birth of Christ.

And they have existed in the last 2000 years. Witness the atrocities committed under Communism, in which Christianity was forbidden. The executions, the abuses. And Communism is not all bad either!

My point is that you're scapegoating Christianity, and that's bigotry. What you should blame is human nature and the tendency for the wolves to control and prey on the sheep, no matter what creed they all subscribe to. It's the same patterns repeated over and over, whether Christianity is part of the picture or not.

Re: 187

[megkips.livejournal.com]

Someone needs to seriously take some history classes.

A) For a GOOD three-hundred to four-hundred years the Christian church, aside from being UTTERLY fragmented and ranging in an insane amount of different beliefs within the church itself, was an underground movement thanks to Roman attitudes towards religion which would have not been as great if Christians had accepted emperor worship. Due to their refusal and lack of any ancestral ties to an older religion (they were a break away sect of Judaism and while Judaism was Old and Established, Christianity wasn't) they were stigmatized and subject to infrequent persecution. Time frame. Get it right.

B) YES some seriously horrid things due to Christianity have occured. The Crusades are a good example. However, if you actually sit down and study them, a HUGE driving factor beyond religion was the desire to gain land and wealth in the Holy Land. Inquisition and such, yes, that too.

C) If you're going to point fingers at Christianity, what about the other religions? Surely Christianity isn't the ONLY fucking religion on the planet responsible for ills! RELIGION IS NOT THE PROBLEM. PEOPLE ARE. IT IS A MATTER OF HOW PEOPLE INTERPRET AND UNDERSTAND RELIGION THAT LEADS TO PROBLEMS. YOU CANNOT BLAME A FAITH OR THE COLLECTIVE WHOLE OF ADHERENTS FOR THE MISTAKES OF A FEW.

SO GOOD YOU GET IT TWICE!!

[cdaae.livejournal.com]