[ SECRET POST #4328 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4328 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.



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02.


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03.
[The Red Green Show]


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04.
[Overwatch]


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05.


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06. [SPOILERS for The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina]



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07. [SPOILERS for The Haunting of Hill House]











Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #619.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I think the conversations are important, and as much as they can be stupid and annoying, the Bs usually raise good points that need to be made.

But it needs to be way, way, way easier to opt out of those conversations, and have ways to filter your feeds and have control over what you see.

[(Anonymous)]

Why do those points need to be made.

[(Anonymous)]

Because we live in a society.

[(Anonymous)]

Still not seeing the necessity.

[(Anonymous)]

Because fandom isn't just a bunch of stories produced out of some kind of magical ether. Fandom is a subculture involving a lot of people who talk about a lot of things from a lot of viewpoints, and also produce a lot of fanfic. If people are going to be interacting and talking, sometimes that's going to involve argument, and sometimes that's going to involve people saying things that are worthy of critique, and you should be able to critique those things.

I'm not saying that you personally have to take part in, or be exposed to, or pay attention to any of it (although I personally believe that you should). But, yeah, IDK, that's how it seems to me, anyway.

[(Anonymous)]

You're still not telling us why these points need to be made.

Other than someone wants to make them, in which case, fair enough.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, first of all, people do want to make the points. And it's a good thing in general, to the extent that we want to be better people ourselves and we want fandom to be better, because that's the only way that we can get there. At the end of the day, it comes down to the fact that fandom exists in the world, the same as anything else, and that fandom people are real people.

Again, at the same time, it is fandom, and it shouldn't be that serious, and people shouldn't be asses about any of it, and people shouldn't use it as an excuse to be cruel or harmful, and no one should compel you to pay attention to it or to do fandom differently, and all social media platforms should make it easy to control how much interaction you have with The Discourse and set your own preferences. I think all of those things are true at the same time.

[(Anonymous)]

Except fiction is just that - fiction. It isn't hurting anyone. I'm really not into incest, personally, but if someone else wants to write it, you know what? That's absolutely fine, because I don't have to read it. We can both coexist in the same space with no issues whatsoever.

[(Anonymous)]

I am not arguing against the fiction existing, at all.

But fandom isn't just fanfiction existing in a vacuum. It's all the other interactions that fans have, too, all the conversations and theories and meta and discussion. And that - to me - is where these issues arise more, and where they should be talked about (although not in a way that's dickish or obstreperous).

[(Anonymous)]

are you

defending the rabidly anti-nuance "NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO LIKE IMPURE THINGS, KILL YOURSELF PEDO" contingent because "other interactions that fans have" are issues that need to be talked about?????

Please reread the secret. Yeah, there are moral meta issues in fandom with some substance (like the original racefail) that shouldn't be suppressed. "VILLAIN FANS ARE EVIL" might sound like a strawman if you haven't run into it, but it is 100% accurate to a regrettably popular mindset right now. And it does not have either truth value, more value, or social/cultural value. Fandom and fans would be better without it. Purity culture crusaders need to get a fucking grip on the difference between fiction and reality and a respect for the actual complexities of the relationship between the two for thier contributions to those conversations to be remotely worthwhile.

[(Anonymous)]

defending the rabidly anti-nuance "NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO LIKE IMPURE THINGS, KILL YOURSELF PEDO" contingent because "other interactions that fans have" are issues that need to be talked about?????

Nothing that the OP said in the secret is specific to KILL YOURSELF PEDO. OP presented a very general set of scenarios.

I think it's harder than people think - in general - to differentiate between what's rabid and what's reasonable. If you do a bad job with it, you run a serious risk of throwing the good out with the bad. And that's especially true when you fail to differentiate between the things. When you just present a bunch of apparently-reasonable things and just expect everyone to assume that the people involved are totally actually completely rabid and insane. Again, nothing OP said implies that they're talking specifically about "purity culture crusaders who say everyone is evil". Calling people an edgelord certainly doesn't. It's a little rude, maybe, but to say that everyone who calls someone else an edgelord is "rabidly anti-nuance" is fucking absurd.

It's true that over-reactive purity crusade wankery is regretally popular right now. But it's also true that people overreact to what are actually entirely legitimate criticisms, and blow up and act like martyrs on the cross. Don't act like that doesn't happen, too. Like there aren't people who think that any criticism, or anything to do with social justice, is automatically and immediately wrong. Tons of em.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

Nothing against you personally, anon. I think your heart's in the right place, but I need to vent about one thing you said: No, they really don't NEED to be made. You choose to make them, or you choose not to make them. You have every right to do so; however, under no circumstance am I, or anyone else, obligated to care. Keep the discourse in your spaces and among people who care and you're golden; however, unless you've got permission, bringing those lovely "discussions" to anyone else's space is kind of like spontaneously walking into a random facebook friend's room, flopping onto their bed and masturbating with bravado. Why?

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

It's not exclusively one side or the other's responsibility to keep in one place. It's the responsibility of the people talking about it to do so in a way that's possible to filter, and it's just as much the responsibility of the people who don't want to talk about it to carve out their own space (not to mention the responsibility of the people who maintain the websites to build social interaction mechanisms that aren't fundamentally dysfunctional). Figuring out how to do this stuff in a way that works for everyone is a negotiation.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

That's fair. So far I take responsibility for carving out my own space by refusing to have accounts on Twitter, or tumblr at all. You can't count on everyone to tag their shit. I realize that they don't have to, and I don't believe people should be forced into doing things that they don't want to do; however, I can still have the opinion that such people can go fuck themselves for putting an effort toward making entirely too much of fandom a virtue signaling circlejerk from hell. Doesn't anyone make blingee gifs and google cat memes anymore? How about people who write gay sex just to write gay sex? I want to roll with people who chill and who aren't into all this discourse and politically correct shit either. I don't think this is wrong of me. I know who my people are, and they're not the B's (refer to secret) of fandom.

[(Anonymous)]

I think one of the problems is that these exchanges often aren't civil conversations, they're lectures delivered by people who want to demonstrate that they're woker-than-thou.

[(Anonymous)]

I personally think that's like 70, 80% the fault of the platforms where these interactions take place. It really seems like stupid, irrational, knee-jerk interactions are commonplace to the Internet, regardless of what group is involved or what's being talked about.

No.

[(Anonymous)]

Discourse is fine, but those particular things called out in the secret are accusations without basis.

Re: No.

[(Anonymous)]

It's unreasonable to make those accusations without some basis, but all of those things are also things that do happen. Sometimes, they're even done by people who say that they don't do them.

Re: No.

[(Anonymous)]

Nayrt, but if someone ships a M/F coupling in a show, getting in their face and saying, "YOU ONLY SHIP THEM BECAUSE YOU'RE HOMOPHOBIC!!" is going to do what exactly?

Re: No.

[(Anonymous)]

It's unreasonable to make that accusation without some specific basis. The fact of shipping an M/F coupling is not sufficient basis.

Re: No.

[(Anonymous)]

Agreed, so... people need to dial down being accusatory based on flimsy evidence, as in OP's secret?

Re: No.

[(Anonymous)]

I can imagine situations where any of the B points would be a justified point to make, where people would also make all of the OP arguments against them.

I think people should use their sense. But I think people generally underestimate how common these issues are, and I don't think a "golden rule" of always live and let live and never make criticisms is the path forward either.

Re: No.

[(Anonymous)]

DA. LOL, you both are very behind on the discourse. If you're going to argue that it's wrong, at least check up on how bad fandom is right now. I've seen it put out there multiple times that merely shipping a m/f couple is grounds for an LGBT+ person to be thrown out of the community. The m/f discourse for tumblr is:

-all female characters are lesbians, all male characters are gay, even if they're canonically bi, even if they're canonically married to the opposite gender. If you disagree, you are a homophobe. Pointing out things like "this character is married to someone of the opposite gender" and "they're canonically bi, dude" gets accusations of homophobia. Even logical ones like "Why not call her bi because she's happily married with fifteen kids?" gets you accusations of homophobia.
-therefore, your m/f ship is homophobic, even if it's canon, the anti headcanons them as lesbian and gay respectively, and the anti can and will try and call out people for not bowing down to my headcanons.
-the creators are evil and homophobic for not realizing these characters the anti headcanons as gay are gay, and the anti will send death threats and threaten suicide whenever my favorite characters so much as get in a ten mile radius with a character of the opposite gender
-When the creators exasperatedly tell me the ship (which had no basis other than my headcanons) is not happening, The anti will threaten suicide, crytype, try and send death threats rinse and repeat. A few times it's resulted in creators/actors simply deleting social media to escape it.
-when the anti tries to get a character as bi in canon, they mean "I want a gay character, but this character is too into the opposite gender." I can't count the amount of people who went "Make Lance Bi!" but actually meant "but only gay for Keith" and who freaked out when he had feelings for a girl.

It usually has two endings: the first, the anti eventually leaves the "homophobic fandom" and vagueblogs about it constantly, or worse, they start a crit-blog and hatewatch and harass anyone who doesn't block them.

Also, this isn't exaggerated. This literally happened right in Overwatch fandom (the Genji/Mercy lines had people threatening suicide and telling people to kill themselves in the tags, for example) and more recently, the Voltron fandom. The m/f doesn't even have to be real for people to lose their shit over it in fandoms these days. See, Overwatch fandom again.

[(Anonymous)]

Hm.. I don't agree with that. I don't think those points 'need' to be made. I mean sure, if one has questions or whatever they should be allowed to ask the author abt those, but I live by: If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything. But that's just me, I suppose..

[(Anonymous)]

You have a point with your points and I hate it. Like, I don't think seriously off-putting themes in fiction should be censored (like underage or racist content for example), because fiction is fiction. Yet I applaud that Youtube has taken down the recent horrifyingly popular "suffragette killing" RDR2 videos. Minorities should have special protection compared to more powerful groups, but where does one draw the line?