fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4459 ]

[ SECRET POST #4459 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4459 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Dan Bern, WTNV, I Only Listen To the Mountain Goats, the Mountain Goats]

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06.

[The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel]

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07.

[Director James Gunn, Guardians of the Galaxy franchise]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 08 secrets from Secret Submission Post #638.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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So? Even if he had a reason for what he did, that doesn't mean the person he lied to has to trust him or have anything to do with him afterwards. He made his choice, he picked his loyalties. Fine. Let him have them. But he can have the consequences too.

If you hide from me the fact that my parents were murdered, that they were murdered by someone you know, I don't give a fuck what your reasons are, what the extenuating circumstances are. I am never speaking to you again. I am never having anything to do with you again. I am certainly never trusting you again. If that makes me a 'rigid autist', so be it.

DA

Did Steve actually lie to Tony though? I mean, when would the subject have even come up?

And regarding him just not telling Tony, ok, I mean, yes, if Steve and Tony were actually close trusted friends, or even if Steve had been able to bring Bucky in before CW and Bucky and Tony would in be in a situation where they would actually be interacting with each other, then yes, I would think Steve had an obligation to tell him. But as far as MCU goes, Bucky hadn’t hadn’t been brought in yet, and Steve and Tony are “friends from work”, and that’s it. There’s no indication that I know of that they had any interaction between Avengers 1 and CA:WS, and then they were on a team together less than a year before Ultron happened and Tony resigned from the team. And then Tony again goes behind the team’s back on the Accords. (Because of course he knows better than everyone else what’s the best thing to do. Again.) I mean, if I was Steve, I would have had a hard time trusting him either with such a volitile piece of information, especially regarding my best friend who’d been tortured and brainwashed into committing said murder.

I'm pretty sure if you find out that somebody has been murdered, you do in fact have an obligation to mention it. Pretty much as soon as you find out about it. You don't get to keep that one under your hat.

Yes, neither of them trust each other. Neither of them SHOULD trust each other. Especially not after that. Let them stay on separate teams and never speak to each other outside of necessity again. I'm perfectly fine with that.

But if someone did what Steve did to Tony to me, I don't care if they're a co-worker or a random stranger to me, that is something I am never forgiving. You don't get to hide my parent's murder, from me and apparently everyone else, and expect me to feel anything but disgust for you afterwards.

Considering how violently and horribly Tony reacted, I'd say Steve was right to think that the hunch/hint he got from a villain (not a direct confirmation, remember) was not something he needed to immediately share.

Considering how he reacted after just watching his parents be murdered in front of him, you mean? On video, sure, but still in front of him when he'd had absolutely no reason to suspect it. I'm pretty sure in all the time Steve knew he could have come up with a situation where a) Tony had some lead up, b) Tony didn't have to watch it happen and c) where the unwilling weapon the murderers used, the face he's just watched murder his mother, wasn't standing right there.

All that aside, the fact that the family of victim might react violently is not an excuse to just never mention the fact that someone was murdered. Of course they're going to react violently. Their family was murdered. You still don't get to just keep it a secret because it's easier for you if you don't have to deal with that. Steve went to fucking war once upon a time. Cowardice is not an excuse to lie and cover up a murder in order to avoid potential violence.

I don't think it's fair to dismiss Steve's reasons as "because it's easier." Why do you think it was easier for him? Why do you think his actions are cowardice?

The comment above me was the one that said Tony's reaction to his parents' murder was enough of a reason for Steve not to tell him. If that's the case, then it is pure cowardice. If you're going to back down from telling the truth about an innocent woman's murder because you don't want to face the reaction to it, when you have willfully torn down entire government agencies for treason yourself and damn the consequences, then you are a coward. What the hell was it about Tony's potential reaction that he couldn't have just faced, instead of lying and keeping silent and letting the murders go without justice or even acknowledgement?

After spending an entire movie lecturing everyone about due process and accountability, Tony reacted with intent to MURDER, not just punch Bucky in the face and be done with it. He even KNEW Bucky was controlled and had no choice or will in the matter, and said straight up "I don't care."

Because he had literally just watched his mother be murdered. And turned around to find the face that killed her standing right there. You do not watch someone you love die in front of you and react rationally.

If I remember right, the film makers even said they did that on purpose, they set it up exactly like that to produce that reaction. As did Zola. The entire situation was set up do he'd have no option except to react emotionally. And yes, he walked right into it and gave them exactly what they wanted, but if someone murders my mother and I turn around and they're standing right beside me, I am 100% smashing their face in myself.

But, true. You don't have to forgive him for it. Neither does Steve, neither does Bucky. But by exactly the same token, he doesn't have to forgive them for what they've done. (Mostly Steve, Bucky's actions were against his will - though even still, even if someone did not willingly murder your family, that doesn't mean you should have to look at them ever again when they still have). Which is what I mean. That entire relationship is past salvaging. The things they have done to each other in these movies are beyond the pale. This is not ... Cut them out. Have them be done with each other. This is not a relationship that has ever helped anybody, least of all either of the people in it. What is there to salvage in a relationship that started out with interpersonal strife and graduated to lies and secrets and violence? Where people hide murders and respond to each other's actions with violence? Where there is no trust and never has been?

I'm never going to believe that, and I don't even like Stark. But he went up against Thor and space leviathans in a much older model suit, so if he really intended to kill, two super soldiers would hardly be a match for him.

Man, I'm sorry that Steve never found the right time to tell his coworker "hey an evil Nazi ghost uploaded to a computer in a military bunker implied while openly taunting me that my brainwashed friend MIGHT have been forced to kill your dad (who he was also friends with) while being mindcontrolled and intermittently frozen over the last 70 years. I would have told you sooner but there was an evil cult taking over the government and threatening to kill millions of people (including you), so that kinda came first."

Also, I'm curious what your opinion is on Peter Quill's actions in Infinity War.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there were two years between Winter Soldier and Civil War. That's a lot of time not to tell someone. More than I can forgive.

I haven't seen Infinity War. What have Peter Quill's actions got to do with anything?

In between Winter Soldier and Civil War was Age of Ultron, in which the two of them were ANYTHING but friendly with each other (and in which Tony pulled some awful shit of his own, more than /I/ can forgive. He was my fave before that movie.)

Ah, okay. I asked because in Infinity War, Peter reacts violently to finding out a loved one was recently killed by someone who was right in front of him, and he's been getting a lot of shit from fans for that reaction (because it did fuck up a plan, but the murder had happened mere /hours/ before) while Tony usually gets a pass.

And there was a year between WS and AoU. A year for him to sit on the knowledge that two people had been murdered and tell no one. I'm sorry. By my lights, you just don't get to hide that and still have my respect. There are some things where, if you have any courage and decency at all, you stand up and say it. There is no excuse for a lie or omission of that magnitude. Someone was murdered.

And someone was a POW who was tortured and brainwashed for 70 years.

(Jumping back in here....I’m not the OP of the last few comments but I did comment a few posts back.)

I guess...I’m not trying to change your mind here. Obviously to you it is a very black and white situation. It just isn’t to me. They both made mistakes. Steve didn’t tell Tony what Zola said/implied. Tony tried to murder Bucky.

I mean, fair disclosure of bias - I’m more on Steve’s side than Tony’s in this. I like Tony, but I’ve found it impossible to side with him since Ultron, and I felt like he did the same thing all over again with the Accords. On the other hand, I wasn’t entirely happy with Steve in CW either. The whole Lagos debacle was entirely on him, and other than that one short scene with Wanda when they’re watching the news, the movie makes no acknowledgement of that, preferring to entirely put it onto Wanda and her scary powers. I would have been much happier if Steve had stepped up and taken more responsibility for what happened, and taken a more forceful stance in arguing against Ross’s bullshit.

So yeah, they both screwed up. But then Thanos came. And wiped out half the population of the universe. I guess under those circumstances I feel like there’s room for them to view things in a different perspective and to find some forgiveness and move forward.

But as always, mileage will vary.

I'm pretty sure if you find out that somebody has been murdered, you do in fact have an obligation to mention it. Pretty much as soon as you find out about it. You don't get to keep that one under your hat.

Legally speaking, sure. Otherwise, that is pretty rigid thinking.

If you know that telling is going to screw over someone close to you, possibly get them killed, especially someone you know is innocent, would you tell? Or would you find some other way to handle it?

Granted, two years is a long time, and I think Steve might have come up with the words to break the news to Tony, but considering both their histories, I kind of understand why he didn't.

Then you tell them that your friend is innocent. You show them the evidence of what was done to him. You stand up and fight for your friend, but you do it honestly. When it's other people's secrets he's fine with that. He threw all of Hydra's secrets to the wind, let the consequences fall where they would, even when doing so meant all of SHIELD's secrets and the secrets of everybody they'd ever investigated or blackmailed or protected went with them. He stood up for the truth then. But as soon as the consequences have a face he knows, suddenly he's a coward? Suddenly secrets are fine again, and murders are something we can just sweep under the rug? HYDRA's murders? Of a man who was his friend and an innocent woman? What the fuck happened, Mr I-can-do-this-all-day? Or is it just easy to be honest when it's someone else paying the price?

He lied. He perpetuated the cover-up of two murders HYDRA had committed, one of them the murder of a friend. He did so in the face of that man's son. When he could have stood. When he could have stood up for Bucky, stood up for Howard, stood up against what HYDRA did to them both. But he didn't. He fucking didn't. Because for the first time in 70 years his choices had consequences that were personal to him, and he fucking caved because of it. He said nothing. He let the murder of Howard and Maria Stark stand.

Jesus, Steve. Jesus. "Sometimes my friends don't tell me things." Jesus.

He TRIED to tell them Bucky was innocent. He was laughed at when asked about getting Bucky a lawyer. A huge chunk of the plot of Civil War is nobody listening to Steve about Bucky's innocence, including Tony.

Also, god, you're acting like he was quizzed on the murder and he said "no officer I've never seen that man in my life." He chose not to bring up an implied thread from Zola. He didn't know 100% what the facts were, so coming to Tony with a half-understood mention would have been cruel too.

He didn't tell anyone they were murdered. Because doing so might lead to the revelation that it was Bucky who was forced to murder them. For two years. Nobody asked him about it because he didn't allow that to be an option. And I do fully understand why, but it's still not something I can forgive him for. His reasons aren't enough to justify that in my eyes. You can't lecture other people about telling the truth and then just hide a murder. Even the implication of a murder.

After the events in WS, Steve was trying to find Bucky, to bring him in, to help him. That was his priority. Zola had merely hinted that HYDRA had something to do with Howard's death. So the first time we, the audience, sees that Bucky verifies that he did all those things that HYDRA brainwashed him innto doing is on the quinjet to Siberia.

Please tell me, given that timeline, when Steve had a chance to tell Tony what he knew?

No, I get it. You're not going to forgive Steve. Got it. But understand that some of us have thought about this and know that Marvel made this an immovable object/unstoppable force paradox. They both lose. No one wins.

SA

Drat. I hate it when I forget to close an italics tag. :(

It happens. One spiky boi without a friend can ruin your whole day. Or, well. Comment.

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[ SECRET POST #4459 ]

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