fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #619 ]

[ SECRET POST #619 ]

⌈ Secret Post #619 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain MULLETS.

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Early cause I gotta run and get books/class/etc ethgkjehtkgh

WE'RE RANK SOMETHING → [ env sec ind tra pop com ]

Secrets Left to Post: 17 pages, 404 secrets from Secret Submission Post #089.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

What the fuck is it with using pictures of the gates of Nazi concentration camps for fandom secrets? I'm sorry, but nothing anyone does in fandom is *that* serious, that it must be linked to such atrocities. Grow the fuck up.

This is at least the second time a picture of "arbeit macht frei" gates have been used in this community, and it's hard to believe that people are either that insensitive or that ignorant. Please, begin to educate yourselves.

It was for a fandom that involved Nazis and concentration camps. So yeah, Auschwitz was used.

You wrote homosexual fluff porn about concentration camps and were surprised people flamed you? O_o

Yeah, that's pretty WTF.

Because there were no homosexuals in the concentration camps, amirite? The gay rights movement just made up the pink triangle, did they? People didn't reach out to each other for love, for a little bit of humanity in those camps?

Honestly, without reading the fic, I have no way of knowing if it was handled tastefully or not, but I don't deny the possibility that it could have been.

Dude... it's not the homosexual. It's the FLUFF PORN. For a lot of people the holocaust is way too soon, and to treat it as a place where fluffy lighthearted romance sex of any type went on (especially among inmates) that's crass and disrespectful. It's like not taking the situation seriously.

She probably would have had less flames if she'd written graphic ugly homosexual rape and torture in that context.

Well, from the way the secret was worded, the OP made it sound like teh gay was everyone's biggest problem with it. And I think the phrase "fluff porn" is a little to vague to make these kind of value judgments without reading the fic. Personally, when I saw the phrase, I thought "probably very tenderly portrayed, probably not very explicit or detailed, probably (as I said before) about two people reaching out to each other in the darkness" none of which I feel is impossible to portray while also keeping true to the dark and horrific backdrop of the camps.

There's a movie, called "Bent", about two men who meet and fall in love in Dachau. They never actually have sex, but many of their interactions are sexually charged. In no way does the film ever let you forget what horrible conditions they live in, and the sort of brutality they have to suffer.

I repeat, without reading it, there is no way of knowing if it was handled tastefully. And while I can appreciate that some people may think the subject is inherently distasteful, it does not mean that the author has done anything objectively wrong, any more than the writers of "Bent" did.

I was with the OP until the disclaimer that her fic was sheer fucking FLUFF and then... like a lightbulb...

Not having seen these dosens of flames, or the story in question, I of course, have no idea if the community was rabidly homophobic or not, but I do know that fluff and holocaust do not go together unless you add black humor to the list as well. It's like fluffy pedophilia. It's going to squick people.

The fact that the OP automatically assumes that Fluff = non-squicky in all contexts makes me wonder if she may have also assumed flames = homophobia.

EDIT: Also the movie Bent doesn't sound like fluff to me. It sounds like ANGST.

Edited 2008-09-16 16:13 (UTC)

I maintain that one can portray fluffy sex in a decidedly non-fluffy environment. I mean, an outstanding proportion of hurt/comfort fics take place in dungeons and jail cells, and much of h/c is fluff. Again, we may be operating with different definitions of "fluff", but I think the fact that the OP contrasts it with "hardcore" should say enough in that regard. In principle, it is no more distasteful than "Life is Beautiful", which is about a father trying to make life in a concentration camp seem like a game for his son. There are a number of laughs in that movie, but you never once forget the terrible circumstances that have brought them there.

Yeah, I think we must have different definitions.

Fluff for me means an absense of angst. It's hot-cocoa fic, a walk through the park with your lover, all the warm gooey enjoyment of romance without anything more emotionally painful going on than maybe some miscommunication. If that's going on in a concentration camp, while they are starving, hurt, terrified, then they aren't acting like people to me.

Now Hurt/Comfort would work. But Fluff? Not so much.

Re: 175

mechanicaljewel.livejournal.com - 2008-09-16 16:51 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 175

velvet-mace.livejournal.com - 2008-09-16 17:07 (UTC) - Expand

h/c is not fluff -- it's the opposite of fluff. Sweet and tender =/= fluff. Fluff = NOT SERIOUS.

Fluff = "A genre in which the story is devoid of angst and takes on a mood of light-hearted romance" according to wikipedia. (emphasis mine).

You can portray fluffy sex in a non-fluffy environment, but you will squick people if you do, because it will appear that you have no respect for the environment they are in. There are a large portion of people out there who can't take a concentration camp any way but seriously. Perhaps an amazing writer can manage their readers emotions well enough to get away with it, but I'm guessing the OP isn't that amazing.

Edited 2008-09-16 16:49 (UTC)

Re: 175

mechanicaljewel.livejournal.com - 2008-09-16 16:54 (UTC) - Expand

Also, yes parts of "Bent" are angsty, but there's also a few scenes that I think qualify as fluff, including an almost-sex scene.

The fact that a concentration camp fandom even exists further disgusts me. I guess you've proved that people really are just that insensitive and/or fucked up.

...the anon didn't say it was a fandom for concentration camps, just that it involves them.

I mean, one of my biggest fandoms is hip-deep in Nazis, but that doesn't mean make it "Nazi fandom."

That's disgusting.

sakai_yukari, I agree with you. As a Jew, I am horrified and disgusted by this.

Wait, so is that supposed to mean that history can't be told through a more 'popular' medium? I should think that's rather ignorant, actually.

History is history; we learn about it to try and prevent it from happening again. Obviously yes WWII, Nazis, and Concentration Camps are NOT exactly on everyone's top ten favourite things, but I, personally, find it fascinating to learn all I can about it. I certainly do not condone what happened; I abhor the actions taken. But nothing can change what happened. I'm not Jewish, but if I was I wouldn't be horrified or disgusted at all. I wasn't there, and so I would say, 'Okay, that was the early 1940's, this is 2008, I think it's time to move on and just accept history for what it is.' However, if any of my past family had been involved in the horrors that took place, I might be a little 'hmmm...' but still: Definitely not so offended. Now, if you're talking about being horrified and disgusted at the fact that humans could actually commit these crimes: Please--! Be horrified and disgusted! But don't be horrified and disgusted because there's a story with a fandom that involves the Nazis and concentration camps.

I'm not sure what else exactly the fandom the OP posted about involves, but I really... really don't think it glorifies what happened in WWII. No pink flowers, or sparklies going off anywhere. I myself am both a German- and Italian-American. I get called Kraut, Nazi, Dago, etc. a lot by the kid I go to school with all the time. He happens to be Jewish and it really erks me that he can't just move on from what happened more than 60 years ago when neither of us were alive.

Your icon is from Band of Brothers, and Easy Company happen to find a Concentration Camp. The Jews came out as nothing but skin and bone! And--if I remember correctly--they showed a pile of burnt bodies. Believe me--I cried during this scene when I watched it in high school , and I find it rather ironic that you seem to be a fan of Band of Brothers, but can't grasp the fact that there's another story portraying (what may as well be) the exact same thing.

I think history is a highly important subject to keep alive. Especially to atrocities of WWII: From the Nazi party, to the Holocaust, to Pearl Harbor, to Normandy... all the way down to the last chip of paint on the planes. (Which, admittedly, isn't 'atrocious', but... history, nonetheless.) If it is told in a story format, what's so bad about it?

I'm sorry if you find my response offensive, but, as a fan of history and WWII, I find everyone else's response to secret 175 even more offensive.

tl;dr I get to decide what other people are allowed to be offended by AMIRITE

Also, you're an idiot for saying that Jews should "move on" from an atrocity that killed off most of the Jewish population in Europe. Imagine if your entire ethnicity almost ceased to exist in a period of a few years. Yeah, that'd really affect your culture, too. Why is it that nobody gives a shit when other ethnic groups are affected by genocide that happened a much longer time ago (slavery of African Americans, the genocide of the Native Americans), but when Jews are affected by something that happened less than a hundred years ago (practically yesterday as far as history is concerned), everyone is like "move on"?

I'm not saying everybody should feel bad but I can understand why it's a sensitive subject for many Jews.

Not at all; I think it's just a foolish thing to be so offended by.

First off, 'saying that' doesn't make me an idiot. If I had said to forget what happened, fine: Call me an idiot, but I did quite the opposite. I supported remembering what happened, and accepting history for what it is. Getting offended over the fact that so many Jews were killed will not bring them back.

As for nobody giving a shit: I do give a shit, actually. I'm ashamed that blacks were enslaved, and that Native Americans were killed, but that doesn't mean that some dead slave's grandson should get compensation: He wasn't there! I think it is important to be affect by history; it's impact is great, but to take offense to a story (not the fanfiction in question, but the fandom itself) is foolish.

Er... I think it's pretty safe to say that fanfic romances aren't keeping history alive. In fact, it would be a bit horrifying if people actually got their knowledge of the holocaust from fan fiction.

I really... really don't think it glorifies what happened in WWII. No pink flowers, or sparklies going off anywhere.

Actually, I think that precisely this might have gone on with the fic in question. "Sheer fucking fluff" is not that far from pink flowers and sparkles. Unless the OP has confused Fluff with Angsty H/C and sheer with "somewhat."

I'm sorry you seem to think I was talking about the fanfic. I was talking about the fandom in question; sorry. (And I agree wholeheartedly with the gaining of knowledge through fanfiction.)

However, while I myself probably wouldn't write a fluff fic, I see no reason why the OP/author wouldn't be allowed to write a homosexual fanfic, whose setting happens to be a concentration camp. Who's to say that such a thing wouldn't happen?

You know, this brings up a question for me, how is writing fic set in a historical setting fanfic? Seems to me it would all be original historical fic, unless they were using some source in particular.

That aside, thing is, I've read some historical homosexual original fic set in concentration camps and it has gone over well with no homophobia. So there is no reason why it being homosexual would be a problem. The fluff however, that's another story.

The OP wrote a fanfic based on the fandom, and it was the content of the fanfic that set people off. I'm all for original and fan historical fic, it's just trusting the source. (Unless you meant something else?)

Like I said, the fluff would really be pushing it for me (but then, I'm a lover of angst fic), but depending on how it was written is a huge and unknown (and very important) variable. It might have been a daydream of a character; like musing, or something.

So... there's Holocaust fanon? A shared holocaust-based universe out there? I didn't know that. I've only seen the independently written stuff.

Yeah, for me writing fluff about the holocaust would be kind of missing the entire point.

It's not so much 'fanon' (in the usual fangirl 'fanon' sense) as there's a series that's mentioned the concentration camps. As for the fanon there may be, I think it'd be more or less for the knowledge and fascination of history; that's how I feel about it.

I suppose it really depends how you look at it. Lover-of-angst I may be, but no matter what situation is, I try to keep happy and think of better things, so... maybe the OP's characters were like that? I suppose it depends on how the situation is presented as well.