Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2008-09-19 05:13 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-09-19 05:13 pm
[ SECRET POST #623 ]
⌈ Secret Post #623 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
1. Check out
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif){kind=small}
ljconfesses if you haven't!2. CITY STUFF → [ pop ]
3. Also, for anyone who needs people to click links for games, this site is really helpful: http://swle.yarold.eu/?id=3809
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #089.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 6 - trolls ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2008-09-20 12:46 am (UTC)(link)But recently, when I was getting kind of depressed over it, I got to thinking...if given the choice, would I actually be able to choose greatness in one ability of mine, to the total detriment of the others? And I found that I couldn't.
There are so many different situations in my life where I need certain skills, and if I didn't have all of them, I'd be at a big disadvantage. The people who are naturally talented in one area might just envy you, because once they're put outside of their own comfort zones, they won't do that well. I'd rather make all Bs in school than one A+ accompanied by Ds. Just think of it like that, and maybe you'll change your mind.
123. There are plenty of manga to read out there that don't have sexist undertones, especially not comparable to the straight-up offensive shit in Bakuman. You just have to know where to look. Fullmetal Alchemist and D.Gray-man are good choices, but frankly, the misogyny rampant in both fandoms makes many people think twice about getting involved. Dumb fans don't speak for the storylines and characters, though.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2008-09-20 12:52 am (UTC)(link)123
That said, I'm afraid I have to diagree about the whole 'anime-is-sexist' issue. I'm of the opinion that anime only seems sexist because we're reading a Japanese story from an American point of view. In Japan, most shonen manga portray women in a way that's considered respectful. It's not exactly gung-ho female empowerment, but most manga that I've come across have at least one strong, determined female heroine in a major supporting role. The only thing that really seems sexist to me is the way that, as you said, that fandom reflects on the original work.
Re: 123
(Anonymous) 2008-09-20 02:45 am (UTC)(link)Some fans of the series go far beyond your average sexist tripe and into territory that is, to be honest, disturbing. Not all fans, by any means, but just enough to be noticeable. Inappropriate double standards are only the tip of the iceberg. From the sort of derogatory terms I've seen applied to the primary female character in the series, one would have to wonder if the fans were harboring some kind of resentment against women in general, especially since they fawn over equally flawed male characters.
Me too. I don't recall saying anime or manga are sexist mediums in general, but that doesn't excuse the fact that some of them have sexist qualities. Plenty of American shows are guilty of the same, so this is hardly a cultural issue. And from an American or Japanese point of view, quotes like 'Men have dreams that women can't understand,' courtesy of the manga Bakuman, are slaps in the faces regardless of misunderstandings based in different cultural values. If you'd like to defend that as 'respectful,' then by all means, I'm waiting. I'm sure plenty of Japanese people would be prepared to stand you up, too.
Also? If you were familiar with the material I was speaking of, and the interaction of fans in response to it, I and many others would probably be more likely to take your opinions seriously. But until then, everyone's going to take what you say with a grain of salt the size of Alaska.
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I don't really know why on earth honor killings would be in any way related to sexism, unless you're talking about killing a cheating wife to defend your honor, which has been a cultural trait of most every society in some point of their history so it's not really fair to attribute it as a Japanese-only issue.
And I'm afaid I can't really define what parts are cultural tradition until I'm clear on what you're talking about being offensive. It's clear that the Bakuman stuff you've quoted at me is sexist, I get that. But Fullmetal Alchemist and D.Gray-man don't have any of that in their source work, which is what's confusing me.
Re: 123
See, I agree that those kind of things are definitly sexist. But usually, when I get into conversations about anime and sexism, a lot of things that people assume are sexist really aren't. Like in Naruto - a lot of people think Kurumada is sexist because the vast majority of his female characters are healers. To certain American readers, this appears sexist because the women are kept out of combat as back-up and are more often defended by their male counterparts. They feel that a woman as to be completely autonomous in order to be independant and strong.
To the Japanese, this is simply an illustraion of the source of a woman's strength - a woman does not need to be violent to be strong, the way a man does, she displays her strength by supporting and being a pillar for a loved one or her family. Most of the time, the male leads in shonen manga would fall apart if their wives/girlfriends/sisters/mothers weren't there to support them. Japanese women aren't strong because they don't need men, they're strong because the men can't live without them.
That's the cultural tradition that I was refering to. You see what I mean?
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I'm actually quite familiar with the source work of both D.Gray-man and Fullmetal Alchemist. The original works don't strike me as particularly sexist (Miranda, Hawkeye and Linali are awsome no matter how you color it, and you can't deny female characters' importance in the male leads' emotional wellbeing) but I'm not very familiar with the fandoms. For all I know, certain fans really are misognists. It's just a somewhat extreme term that should only be used in specific situations, but gets thrown around alot because it sounds impressive, so I usually assume that people are exagerating when they use it.
Don't know Bakuman, never claimed to have known it or seen it. All my statements were 'most' specifically because of that. I don't know the manga, so I can judge it. I suppose I was reading your statement as a blanket "anime is sexist in general" thing because you seemed to be agreeing with the OP ("yeah, lots of it is sexist, but there's a *few* good ones out there") which is what I was arguing against. I think it goes the other way around - there's a lot of good anime out there, but only a few are truly sexist.
And, as you said, you shouldn't let a crappy fandom reflect negetively on good source work.
123
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(Anonymous) 2008-09-20 03:39 pm (UTC)(link)I've seen fans on livejournal and otherwise say thing such as, 'Hoshino needs to quit whoring Lenalee out,' 'Lenalee is useless and cries too much,' 'Lenalee is useless and needs to die,' 'We don't need any more female characters in D.Gray, Lenalee needs to die too,' and more.
It's really disturbing and disheartening to think that some fans think that way. Not to mention that Lenalee is still held to an impossible double-standard compared with the male exorcists, even among average fans. People with really offensive opinions like that are in the minority, but they're still out there.
Re: 123
It's rather unfair and misleading to talk of it as a major fandom problem, especially as it reinforces the prejudice that women are naturally prone to stab each other in the back.
Not to mention that Lenalee is still held to an impossible double-standard compared with the male exorcists, even among average fans.
Actually, Lenalee is a really good character that unfortunately hasn't been able to escape some of the tired old stereotypes that traditionally are foisted on female characters (the clothes, the subserviant attitude, the speech patterns). She breaks the stereotype in so many other ways, but the awesomeness of her character is sometimes obscured by these superficial things.
I actually thin DGM is one of the best manga when it comes to female characters, and considering how few female characters there are in it compared to male characters, that really says something about the poor state female characters are in in manga and anime (and all media, really).
There's a big problem with how women and girls are portrayed in fiction, and there's a problem with how few there are. A female character in a group of main characters are usually defined by being "the girl" while the others may be "the strong one", "the computer expert", "the strategist", and so on.
The problem many of us have with the type of female characters that's still hugely dominating in manga/anime is that almost none of us can relate to that type of personality, and since she's usually alone she suddenly starts to represents all women. I'm eagerly awaiting the day when there's as much variety in female characteris as there is in male characters...
Re: 123
(Anonymous) 2008-09-20 08:19 pm (UTC)(link)I wasn't trying to imply that fringe groups that are borderline mysoginistic are the norm or even the majority, but I was writing that in response to your comment saying that you had never seen misogyny pop up in D.Gray-man fandom. It's there, like I said. Your average sexism towards Lenalee is a major fandom problem that's more prevalent, though. It reflects on what kind of advancements society is making towards the acceptance of said characters portrayed in many different ways in relation to their sex or expectations of their sex. Many fans of all stripes have impossible and conflicting standards for Lenalee.
It's not right, really. Lenalee is certainly a great character, like you said, and one of my favorites. Those are problems that need to be addressed, especially since so many young women and men are buying into them and possibly letting ideas like that really get to them. And I still think that, yes, mainstream anime and manga do have a ways to go before we'll start to see more balanced mixes of male and female. I hate it when there are token characters like 'the girl,' 'the black person,' or whatnot. The same goes for American entertainment at large, too. It needs a lot of work, there, I agree.
As a matter of fact, you can see a really good write-up on the sexism issue in D.Gray-man fandom here (http://vikki.livejournal.com/199036.html), if you haven't seen it already, and I think it illustrates what's been happening in fandom better than I could. This is a bigger issue than what most people would like to think, sadly. It's not something that can be fixed easily, but it should definitely be addressed and out in the open.
Re: 123
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean. Could you make an example?
Your average sexism towards Lenalee is a major fandom problem
But I haven't seen any, yet. As I said, I read in the fandom sporadically, so I'm probably missing a lot of discussion.
As a matter of fact, you can see a really good write-up on the sexism issue in D.Gray-man fandom here
I read it, and to be quite frank I think she has completely misunderstood the reason behind the potential dislike people can feel for Linali. I'm sure there are pockets of Linali haters somewhere in the fandom even if I haven't run into them yet, but I propose that a visceral dislike (as opposed to reasonable criticism of the character) is due to misreading certain signals the character sends out and reacting to them emotionally, rather than that the critic being a "bitch" (good grief).
In fact, "Hormones do funny things to people, and most memorably, they turn quite a lot of high school girls into territorial bitches." is one of the more misogynistic statements I've read in a long while.
(I also think she's misunderstood Allen in some rather significant ways, but that wasn't the issue here.)
That said, I think critism of both canon (and its characters) and fandom behaviour are important things. I don't, however, think that sweeping accusations is the way to go.
Re: 123
(Anonymous) 2008-09-20 09:58 pm (UTC)(link)And you may not have seen any, but it sure exists. You're very correct in your statement that you're missing out on a lot of discussion.
Yes, I agree to an extent. Sometimes people do have legitimate reasons for disliking female characters. And sometimes they don't. I don't think it's fair for you to assume either way, because saying that fans who have a 'visceral dislike' of Lenalee ALL have legitimate, emotional reasons for doing so is also a sweeping statement. Some people, frankly, are just not defensible in their opinions. They might just be salty bastards with deep-seated prejudices that they aren't willing to look into and change. Some people are like that, unfortunately.
I tend to take offensive statements about her at face value. If a person wants to explain exactly why they have issues with Lenalee, I'll happily listen, and there may be some underlying reasons that I can relate with if they're actually legitimate. 'She gets in the way of yaoi' would be an illegitimate reason to dislike her, in my opinion. But there are many fans who think that way, and I don't understand just how they're defensible on grounds of character misinterpretation when the fact that she's Lenalee takes a backseat to the fact that she's a Female Character.
Maybe so. I don't know that person, to be honest, so I can't say either way. But I think it's a reasonable suggestion of why some fans feel hatred towards Lenalee, even if it wasn't presented in the best of ways.
Either way, I don't really think we're going to find middle ground on this. I appreciate the chance for discussion, but I'd like to pull out, because I don't think either of us are going to see eye to eye on some of these issues. Thanks anyway, though.
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I think the problem lies with the canon here; Linali loses her innocence and spend lots of time passively unable to do anything about it, and in the end she is given it back by someone else (not her fault! but still annoying), while Allen, as soon as he wakes up, is told that he can get it back himself if he tries hard enough (and after coming to a realisation about himself, that's exactly what happens).
It's once again the active/passive division that annoys me, and that also annoy a lot of other people (sometimes subconsciously).
You're very correct in your statement that you're missing out on a lot of discussion.
Yeah, I've been looking for meta, but I haven't had time to search through journals, and nothing much seem to happen in the comms (or I'm looking at the wrong comms). Could you point me somewhere? I'd like to discuss anything about DGM.
I don't think it's fair for you to assume either way, because saying that fans who have a 'visceral dislike' of Lenalee ALL have legitimate, emotional reasons for doing so is also a sweeping statement.
I try not to make assumptions. Having a visceral emotional dislike is not an excuse for attacks, (and I think that you should seriously consider why you feel so strongly about a character if you do). I don't think that sort of reaction is valid criticism of a character at all. I think it's a result of someone not thinking their reactions through, simple as that.
I also think it can be a symptom of a person being an idiot, but I'm certainly not going to judge everyone who has an emotional reaction. First, I always like to try reason, heh.
'She gets in the way of yaoi' would be an illegitimate reason to dislike her, in my opinion.
Yeah, because that's simply idiotic. That's not considering her as a character, that's just seeing an obstacle (which isn't even an issue in her care, IIRC). It's a reaction I've run into in other fandoms where I'm more active, but it's always been very, very rare.
But I think it's a reasonable suggestion of why some fans feel hatred towards Lenalee, even if it wasn't presented in the best of ways.
No, it bloody well isn't. Dismissing a bunch of women because they're "hormonal bitches" is precisely what misogynists do; it suggests that women are unreasonable and completely in the grip of their hormones, unable to hold a logical argument. That is not the way to deal with misogyny.
Either way, I don't really think we're going to find middle ground on this.
Well, I wasn't trying to accomplish anything in particular; I just like discussion (so again, if you happen to have one or two meta links...?). I find it very rewarding, both when it comes to further understand people, and seeing the subject in a new light.
Re: 123
(Anonymous) 2008-09-20 11:35 pm (UTC)(link)Or perhaps it's just a combination of that and interpretations of canon, but something rubs me the wrong way when, time after time, Lenalee is the only character singled out for it. Perhaps it's just because there's no male character who has gone through similar experiences. But when a female character is held to a different standard than a male, I tend to assume that it's because of sexist attitudes. And Lenalee, like it or not, is held to a different standard.
I find it very, very difficult to contribute that entirely to how people are interpreting canon. But that's just my opinion. I don't think that this is a zero-sum game. Maybe canon is partially to blame, but I feel like you're stepping around the idea that some people hold sexist notions. And many people do hold biases like that against characters regardless of canon, and I think that's a major part of why some fans have issues with Lenalee. Not all, just some. Is it right to assume that all problems that fans have with a character is due to a misunderstanding with the source material? Isn't is equally valid to assume that, at least in part, some sexist attitudes are at work as well? I definitely think so.
I honestly don't have any good meta to point you to.
Okay, you got me. But in my defense, I wasn't saying that I agreed with the idea that all women are under the influence of hormones and can't make good arguments. I disagree with that, and I hate that attitude. What I did agree with in her post, however, even though it was presented badly, was that the reason so many fans are hostile towards Lenalee is because they are territorial over other characters. That territorality is a trait common to both male and female fans of any series.
Fair enough, then. It's nice to discuss this, anyway.
Re: 123
That female characters always takes the passive role is a great source of annoyance for me and many others. Kanda and Lavi both have very different reactions to losing their innocence; for one, they continue to fight even without it! Linali is rendered helpless (by canon), locked up and cast into a passive role. I can't tell you how happy I was when she regained her innocence!
Her characterisation fluctuates a lot, but most of the time I like her very much.
There's also the fact that people generally do criticise male characters. To great extent in many cases! It's just more evident with female characters as there are usually just one, sometimes two, to pick from. When you criticise her, you're essentially criticising all, or half of the female characters! That fans who love Lavi and Kanda can be very critical of Allen is much less noticable.
I expressed my intense dislike of Cross (though I forgave him for a lot of things recently), but what did that matter? He was only one of many and varied male characters in the cast. It's hard to do the same with female characters.
But when a female character is held to a different standard than a male, I tend to assume that it's because of sexist attitudes.
I disagree. For the reasons I gave earlier and just above, I think the main problem is the portrayal of female characters in canon. You can't expect women to like a character simply because it's a female character; it still has to be a good character.
And Lenalee, like it or not, is held to a different standard.
Isn't she held to the same standard, and simply fails to measure up? of course, personally I think she does measure up, most of the time. I criticise her in some ways, but I do that with all characters.
I find it very, very difficult to contribute that entirely to how people are interpreting canon.
It's not about interpreting the canon, it's about the problems the creator of the canon has with the view of women, and that those are passed on into the canon. It's a problem that stems from how society views women, and one reason why it's so important to view female characters with a critical eye. We should not be satisfied with crumbs, damn it!
Maybe canon is partially to blame, but I feel like you're stepping around the idea that some people hold sexist notions.
I'm very aware of the fact that we're living in a sexist society, and that most of us do sexist things without even being aware of it. I just think that
1: Criticising a female character is not a sexist act in and of itself, and
2: The canon portrayal of female characters are very often sexist, and criticising that is a good thing.
Isn't is equally valid to assume that, at least in part, some sexist attitudes are at work as well?
Yes, I'm not trying to say that sexism in fandom is non-existant after all! It's everywhere in society. I'm just opposed to the notion that most, or even large parts of fandom are sexist. I think it's less common in fandom than many other places, actually (though it can vary a lot between fandoms).
the reason so many fans are hostile towards Lenalee is because they are territorial over other characters.
Yeah, I don't like that at all. It makes people unreasonable, and they make a bunch of assumptions about canon that's just.. out there. I just think it's because they're idiots, not because they're women with hormones.
I love discussions; they make me happy!
Re: 123
(Anonymous) 2008-09-21 07:20 am (UTC)(link)And unlike Kanda and Ravi, Lenalee was so injured by her fight against the level 3 akuma that she was barely able to walk without assistance. When it came time to face the level 4 akuma, both of them had no mobility or physical issues facing them aside from having no Innocence, which Lenalee had on TOP of being injured.
And no, I don't expect female fans to like or dislike female characters based on factors like their sex. I don't expect anyone to do the same with any character of any trait. But my problem here isn't with canon. It's with fan attitudes towards canon that may or may not reflect deeply ingrained sexist attitudes.
And yes, I find a big, big problem with female characters being held to different standards than male characters, because frankly, I wouldn't hold an African American character or a Jewish character to a different standard than a Caucasian character. With that logic, the traits that they have--being female, for example--are the reason that they're being singled out in the first place, when those traits should be irrelevant to things like fighting skill and development. Why should they be relevant? Why should Lenalee be held to a different standard than, say, Allen, all factors other than their sex aside?
I'd be more likely to agree with you assessment about Hoshino possibly having sexist attitudes that spill over into her work, but I just don't think, looking at her other female characters and her portrayal of Lenalee, that that's the case. It is with plenty of authors, and I'm more than willing to call sexism on them when I see it. But I'm not seeing it in D.Gray-man canon. Which is why I'm more likely to point fingers at fans, because the material they're interpreting doesn't, in my opinion, reflect any sort of attitude of the author's about women in Lenalee's case.
She's a distinct character who's had different development and experiences than other characters, and I don't feel like Hoshino has made the fact that she's female any sort of issue or stepping stone with her. She's just an exorcist with her own set of problems who happens to be female, so I don't think that she should be judged on a different scale with a similar exorcist who happens to be male purely on the basis of their sexes.
Furthermore, here's another link that you might be interested in: http://nagaina-ryuuoh.livejournal.com/291992.html#cutid1
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(Anonymous) - 2008-09-21 15:04 (UTC) - ExpandRe: 123
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(Anonymous) - 2008-09-21 15:58 (UTC) - ExpandRe: 123
104 OP
(Anonymous) 2008-09-20 05:31 pm (UTC)(link)Re: 104 OP
(Anonymous) 2008-09-20 08:21 pm (UTC)(link)