fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #648 ]

[ SECRET POST #648 ]

⌈ Secret Post #648 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.

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102.

[FF7; Crisis Core]

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103.

[Parting Glances; Steve Buscemi]

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104.

[Transformers movie/New Knight Rider]

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105.

[Creepy houses in Stephen King novels]

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106.

[Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's]

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107.

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108.

[Dexter]

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109.

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110.

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111.

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112.

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113.

[Looking for Group webcomic]

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114.

[Tales of Symphonia]

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115.

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116.

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117.

[Supernatural]

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118.

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119.

[Persona 3; Minato/Aigis]

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120.

[Dallas]

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121.

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122.

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123.

[Doctor Who]

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124.

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125.

[To the Manor Born]

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126.

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127.

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128.

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129.

[BNFs?]

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130.

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131.

[Jonathan Coulton/Portal]

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132.

[Prince of Tennis]

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133.

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134.

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135.

[Pushing Daisies]

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136.

[House MD]

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137.

[Supernatural]

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138.

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139.

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140.

[Emma Watson]

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141.

[The French Revolution?/Shipping]

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142.

[The Dark Knight]

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143.

[Prince of Tennis musical]

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144.

[Kiefer Sutherland]

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145.

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146.

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147.

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148.

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149.

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150.

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151.

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152.

[Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's]

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153.

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154.

[Code Geass]

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155.

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156.

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157.

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158.

[Spongebob Squarepants; Squidward]

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159.

[*secret comms]

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160.

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161.

[Fullmetal Alchemist]

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162.

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163. [not fandom]

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164.

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165.

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166.

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167.

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168.

[CHUCK NORRIS]

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169.

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170.

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171.

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172.

[Fullmetal Alchemist]

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173.

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174.

[Batman Begins; Scarecrow]

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175.

[Supernatural]

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176.

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177.

[Henry Rollins]

Notes:

CITY STUFF → http://lolbuttsex.myminicity.com/

Secrets Left to Post: 09 pages, 224 secrets from Secret Submission Post #093.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 - not!secrets ], [ - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ], [ 1 - a random picture but it's cool ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Especially since I have plenty of gay friends who hate it because it is general a misrepresentation of their actual relationships

Yeah, this is a total valid criticism. I mean, it's not like there are gay and bisexual slash fans or anything. And het romance is known for being 100% accurate.

I don't think that disliking slash = homophobia, but when people pull out bullshit excuses like this, I do start to wonder about their real motivations.

And het romance is known for being 100% accurate.

Just like porn!

Just like porn!

Which is what the internet is for, anyways

because i said that het doesn't have that issue as well =/ i don't like most het for that reason either haha.

because i said that het doesn't have that issue as well =/ i don't like most het for that reason either haha.

Then why did you single slash out in the first place? Why did you mention your gay friends?

Look, as long as you don't treat slash differently than het, no problem. I just don't like double standards.

I was simply bringing it up specifically because thats what this girl was addressing in her secret =)

I treat it differently only in the mere sense that if its purely a sex thing, I don't get turned on (although I'm starting to think its also because I'm largely turned-off by any anal sex) So anything sexual is where the line is drawn. Although, I can watch any sex-scene from an artistic sense if its part of a movie and have no problem (ala Brokeback Mountain)

Everything else is like the same thing to me, and in general cases I like very realistic pairings, and they can usually be found through cannon based on the stronger foundation (if I like the series enough I suppose) Although sometimes some fanficers can be convincing enough of a pairing to make it work imo.

All of that's fine! Everybody has different preferences and you're free to like and dislike whatever you want. And, ftr, I agree with you: porn for porn's sake isn't as interesting as fic that takes the time to develop the character's relationship.

My only problem was with the last line, when you talked about how your gay friends hate slash because it wasn't "realistic." Not only is most het just as unrealistic, but the slash written by gay men isn't more realistic than slash written by straight women. And there are a few gay and bisexual men writing slash, along with a lot of lesbians and bisexual women.

Well I suppose my gay friends get more upset by how they are portrayed. I mean I've also had experience where a girl i know will make a comic of two guys that are best friends that she knows in a couple of write about even a gay friend in that light. I believe in that extent it becomes just as bad as mary-sue self-insert.

Well I suppose my gay friends get more upset by how they are portrayed.

Why? This just... doesn't make any sense to me. Slash isn't any less realistic than most mainstream gay romances and is definitely better than a lot of internet porn (ever hear of the Nifty archive?). What is it about slash in particular that upsets them?

I mean I've also had experience where a girl i know will make a comic of two guys that are best friends that she knows in a couple of write about even a gay friend in that light.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. Sorry, it's the end of the day and my brain's a little fried.

To gay guys, well it is. I mean I'd have to say they're more offended by japanese manga and even the physical portrayal and their emotional tendencies. I mean, I can't go into every mind of theirs but I suppose they also don't like straight girls bugging them about their sexuality (my friend said how it's creepy)

Haha its fine. There are girls out there that take RPS to that whole new level of drawing comics of their friends making out and pairing them up in romantic slash. And when the guys find out about this well... they're a bit... unsettled by it. It's almost like an infringement of their privacy. Especially when girls ask them to kiss it becomes irritating. To a gay guy I suppose it could be the same as when two lesbians are kissing and some straight guy starts cheering them on and getting into their face for the fact that they're being gay. But the comic level makes it even more, creepy. I mean it's the same with self-insert I feel, where if I found out some guy/girl was writing fics about myself and them in a romance I'd find it a little creepy.

I mean I'd have to say they're more offended by japanese manga and even the physical portrayal and their emotional tendencies.

Honestly, I don't know enough about manga to say anything. However, it sounds like you're saying that it's specific cliches that they find offensive and not the genre itself? Because I can understand that: there are lots of mainstream romantic cliches that bug me.

they also don't like straight girls bugging them about their sexuality (my friend said how it's creepy)

and

There are girls out there that take RPS to that whole new level of drawing comics of their friends making out and pairing them up in romantic slash.

That is really creepy. I'm a lesbian and have had to deal with that shit from straight guys for years, so your friends have my sympathy. Some people tend to forget that gay people (no matter what gender) are human beings and not just fantasy objects. (True story: I told a man who was persistently hitting on me that I'm a lesbian. He proceeded to pull out pictures of his female friends and asked me if I would fuck any of them.)

(no subject)

nuclearpez.livejournal.com - 2008-10-15 02:04 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2008-10-15 03:19 (UTC) - Expand

Why? Slash(yaoi especially) and het are different. Why do you pretend like they're not?

I'm not "pretending"; I really don't think slash, femslash and het are all that different (I know absolutely nothing about yaoi). What differences are you talking about?

Well, mostly they're different because a gay relationship isn't exactly the same as a het one. There are other reasons, too. The great divides along shipping lines, for example, suggest that it's about more than just porn. I think what people get out of a slash pairing is typically different than what people get out of a het pairing.

I should look into the whole thing more, but the truth is I can't really speak authoritatively on slash, especially since most of the circles I run in fall more on the yaoi/yuri side. They're similar, I guess, but different in too many important ways to generalize to eachother. Short answer is, I just feel that they are, or else you wouldn't get these gigantic splits and people sorting themselves into slash fans and non-slash fans.

I think what people get out of a slash pairing is typically different than what people get out of a het pairing.

What, exactly, do you think people are "getting" out of a slash pairing? Or out of a het pairing? And where does femslash fit into all this?

I just feel that they are, or else you wouldn't get these gigantic splits and people sorting themselves into slash fans and non-slash fans.

Hmm, in my experience, the number of people who identify as being purely het fans, or purely slash fans is shrinking. While many people may still have a preference, fandom's no where near as divided as it used to be. Furthermore the people who do seem to have a definite preference have different reasons for doing so.

You may have a point about different motivations -- I just don't think it's any where near as simple as you're implying.

No, it probably isn't as simple as I'm implying - but it isn't as simple as "some people are homophobic or unconsciously prejudiced against slashed couples" either.

Truthfully, I haven't got the answers you're looking for. I'm still trying to figure out the right questions to ask. I'm just pretty certain from casual observation that there is something going on here that extends beyond porn preference and homophobia.

but it isn't as simple as "some people are homophobic or unconsciously prejudiced against slashed couples" either

I never said that it was. In fact, I tried very hard not to say that. My point was that homophobia is more common than we'd like to think, and that this homophobia can manifest itself in subtle ways. A person can have tons of gay friends (or even be gay him/herself) and still say or do homophobic things. There are a lot of anti-slash reactions that do strike me as being subtextually homophobic and I think that I should be allowed to point that out.

Of course, there are a lot of different reasons for a person to like/dislike slash, some are valid and others are kind of shady. So, yes, we absolutely should not jump to conclusions, I completely agree with you about that.

I'm just pretty certain from casual observation that there is something going on here that extends beyond porn preference and homophobia.

Yes, that's probably true. And, for the record, I don't think that there's anything wrong with wondering why people like what they like. Personally, I prefer to focus on how there are a lot of individual reasons for liking or disliking something, whether it's a pairing, or a character or whatever. Of course, that doesn't mean that there aren't other factors in play, or that it's wrong to analyze these trends. It's just not how I like to do things.

There is one thing that I'd like to point out: when you talk about slash, you're assuming that the vast majority is written by heterosexual women. And while most of it is, there is a statistically disproportionate number of lesbians, bisexual women and various trans folks in fandom along with a smattering of gay men. Queer fen are usually ignored by the people hoping to understand slash fandom and, as a lesbian who writes m/m slash, I do get tired of being ignored or dismissed.

(no subject)

paperclipchains.livejournal.com - 2008-10-15 07:44 (UTC) - Expand

IAWTC

How are they bullshit excuses?

The criticism is HELLA valid if you're approaching it from a familiarity with yaoi, I'll tell you that much.

I think you're oversimplifying it. It doesn't matter if het romance is known for being 100% accurate, they're two different things and you can't just rip them out of context to compare them.

How are they bullshit excuses?

First of all, I'm sorry that I phrased it that way. It was unnecessarily aggressive and I hope that I didn't offend anybody. But I would say they're "bullshit excuses" if they don't make any logical sense. Many people have used the double standard where people who are otherwise fine with non-canon pairings, suddenly turn into Canon Nazis at the first mention of slash. Obviously, the answer they gave for disliking slash ("It's not canon!") doesn't work, so it leaves me wondering what their real reason is.

The criticism is HELLA valid if you're approaching it from a familiarity with yaoi, I'll tell you that much.

Maybe. Not having read any yaoi, I really can't comment.

It doesn't matter if het romance is known for being 100% accurate, they're two different things and you can't just rip them out of context to compare them.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Out of context? And we're talking about romantic fanfic, aren't we? Other than the gender of the characters involved, I don't see any huge difference.

Obviously, the answer they gave for disliking slash ("It's not canon!") doesn't work, so it leaves me wondering what their real reason is.

Without getting into a diatribe on canon vs. fanon, that's a perfectly fair assessment.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Out of context? And we're talking about romantic fanfic, aren't we? Other than the gender of the characters involved, I don't see any huge difference.

Even romantic fanfic has a context - specifically, the culture (and subculture!) in which it's written. For instance: I think there's something to the "slash pairings aren't realistic" argument, and it can't really be compared to het, because often when people say that "slash pairings aren't realistic," what they often MEAN is "slash pairings are written like het, and they're not."

"slash pairings aren't realistic," what they often MEAN is "slash pairings are written like het, and they're not."

I'm going to assume that you mean that some slash writers make one of the male characters much more stereotypically feminine than he is in canon. Which is a fair criticism, and something that definitely bothers me, too. But het romances that have female characters acting like refugees from a Harlequin aren't realistic either. Nobody, of any gender, acts like that.

Besides, in my experience, there are a lot of slash writers out there who fetishize masculinity ("I WANT MY MEN TO BE MEN!!!") and write the characters as much butcher than they are in canon. Even though this is just as OOC as the heteroizing I'm assuming you're talking about, nobody seems to get upset about it.

Actually, I'm talking about both of those things. Just the inability to conceptualize a slash pairing as anything other than a het pairing, but, you know, with two penises.

And sure, there are bad Harlequin characterizations, but I'm not sure what your point is there... People complain about that kind of dynamic all the time.

Actually, I'm talking about both of those things.

I don't think so. I was talking about fics where both of the characters are Very Very Manly. They're emotionally constipated, completely incapable of saying the word "love" and frequently rhapsodize about how wonderful it is to have sex with someone who's the same size as you. Since very few people are 100% masculine, fics that ignore any "girly" parts of a character's personality are OOC.

Just the inability to conceptualize a slash pairing as anything other than a het pairing, but, you know, with two penises.

Now, I haven't been in a heterosexual romance since high school, so I can't speak authoritatively but I'm pretty sure that all het couples aren't all the same. And since there's no one way to act like a "het pairing" then I'm going to assume that you're talking about stereotypical romantic cliches. Which, like I said, are not realistic period. Especially not for the female characters in most of the fandoms I know about (I'm trying to think of any fandoms where it would be IC to write about the fragile little woman who just needs a big strong man to protect her. So far, I haven't come with any).

The real problem is that most people have a very narrow, limited view of how romance works (in fiction, that is). It's just obvious in slash because we're not used to it. That doesn't mean that it's more acceptable in het -- just less noticeable.

Ugh, sorry if this is incoherent, but... I just don't understand why this is a big deal. I mean, sure it's bad to write characters as OOC but I don't know why this particular kind of OOC is so much worse than any other.

Now that you bring up OOC, I think another problem people have with slash is that they feel it's making the character OOC... But again, that shouldn't be much worse than any other kind of OOC. It's just that slash fandom is so big that there's a big backlash against it, and then slash fandom will fight back against the anti-slash fandom, and then the anti-slash fandom will complain about being silenced, and so on and so forth...

I don't know. I maintain that there are differences between het and slash, at least in terms of the fandom, the whole conversation surrounding it (or lack thereof) is a mess.