Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
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fandomsecrets2008-11-24 04:41 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-11-24 04:41 pm
[ SECRET POST #689 ]
⌈ Secret Post #689 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
CITY STUFF → http://lolbuttsex.myminicity.com/
Secrets Left to Post: 13 pages, 316 secrets from Secret Submission Post #099.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 2 - repeat ], [ 1 - personal attack ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
127 OP
(Anonymous) 2008-11-24 10:56 pm (UTC)(link)If you could watch the whole show (not isolated clips from the S2 finale or near the S3 finale) and come away thinking, "Boy, Zutara's totally what they're going for, I feel sorry for those deluded Kataang sheeple," you were paying a hell of a lot more attention to Zutara fandom and bad romance in pop culture than to the show itself.
Re: 127 OP
I didn't say "obvious" or anything like that. There is a huge difference in believing "Hey, maybe they're gonna go for this! Oh man, it's working!" and saying "Well, obviously, they're totally going for Zutara."
As far as I could tell in Avatar, very little was "obvious" because it was a well-written show. But see, your attitude, at least in the post, was one of "It was so obvious it was going to be Aang/Katara."
No. It was obvious that Aang liked Katara. As far as I could tell while watching, there wasn't even a sign that Katara might possibly reciprocate those feeling until the kiss, with the exception of the Cave of Two Lovers, which was just a comedy of errors (and with the Two Lovers being people from two warring nations, represented by blue and red, hey, those of us looking saw it as possible foreshadowing).
The whole reason I thought that it might end in Zutara was because, as far as I could tell, Avatar avoided the obvious--the HSQ for the Season 2 finale was through the roof.
Re: 127 OP
And either way, it was obvious that it wasn't going to be Zuko and Katara. If your argument is that we don't know whether or not Katara had genuine feelings for Aang, then you have to concede that point at least, since there's never any indication that Zuko or Katara might have feelings for anyone but Aang and Mai.
Re: 127 OP
Gah, I am so freaking sick of the smug Kataangers who just feel it's their duty to beat all the Zutarans over the head with their "We Were Right" attitude. Especially since my intial point in my first comment was less "ZOMIGH, ZUTARA 4EVAH" and more "Hey, it's rude to act superior to people with different beliefs."
And I stand by that second one. Whether it's as important as religion or politics, or insignificant as fandom, it rude to act as if what you believe makes you superior to other people.
Re: 127 OP
(Anonymous) 2008-11-25 01:42 am (UTC)(link)Not everyone who thinks it was silly to expect a Zutara ending is a Kataang fan.
Re: 127
What, yelling at eachother all the time? SO ROMANTIC.
Gah, I am so freaking sick of the smug Kataangers who just feel it's their duty to beat all the Zutarans over the head with their "We Were Right" attitude. Especially since my intial point in my first comment was less "ZOMIGH, ZUTARA 4EVAH" and more "Hey, it's rude to act superior to people with different beliefs."
I'm so freaking sick of Zutarians who think I'm a Kataanger because I point out when they're being completely irrational and seeing something that isn't there. Also, that you have a problem with the "we were right" attitude says volumes about you and nothing about Kataangers, who, incidentally, WERE RIGHT. There's nothing smug about stating facts. There's nothing "superior" about criticizing beliefs that make no rational sense.
And I stand by that second one. Whether it's as important as religion or politics, or insignificant as fandom, it rude to act as if what you believe makes you superior to other people.
It is not a question of belief. It is not a question of the philosophically best method to run a society or live a moral life. It is a question of the text of a show. Yes, that is up for some degree of interpretation, but anyone can see that Katara and Zuko stood about as much of a chance as Zuko and Aang did. That they wound up being entirely wrong for eachother according to the show and its creators is not an opinion - it is a fact.
Re: 127
As a Jew who's heard that exact phrase come out of the mouths of extremely militant atheists, that statement rubs me the wrong way.
Yes, that is up for some degree of interpretation, but anyone can see that Katara and Zuko stood about as much of a chance as Zuko and Aang did.
This is an attitude that bugs me. At which point can one make that statement? By sometime in the beginning of the third season, I'd say this is fair. But before then, and I'd heard this kind of thing before then, it seems like you're saying that everyone who felt differently were idiots. Katara/Zuko has a lot of fans. Are you saying all of them are deluded morons?
I'm not saying that I necessarily expected it to happen, but I could see how it could. "Two people who hate each other but get to know the other better and hook up" is not exactly an unheard of in literature.
I just wish this fandom could get over it. Avatar fandom has yet to learn to live and let live, as other fandoms have, and I find it extremely immature.
Re: 127
Okay? Faith isn't supposed to be something rational. Militant athiests who criticize it are usually missing the point entirely. At the same time, they have a point in that taking holy books at face value is rather unwise. Either way, this is not a discussion of faith, it's a discussion of canon. Don't confuse the context.
This is an attitude that bugs me. At which point can one make that statement? By sometime in the beginning of the third season, I'd say this is fair. But before then, and I'd heard this kind of thing before then, it seems like you're saying that everyone who felt differently were idiots. Katara/Zuko has a lot of fans. Are you saying all of them are deluded morons?
Sokka/Azula has a lot of fans. The number of fans doesn't mean anything. Why don't you present me with some evidence and try to explain your point of view as to what made them a plausible couple instead of informing me that you don't like what I'm saying?
Do you know when most of the Zuko/Katara fans sprouted up? In the "I'll save you from the pirates" scene. That was not a romantic scene and did not hint at any kind of romantic interaction between the two of them. It is not plausible to assume that they will become a couple because he threatened and intimidated her. The only scene they had together that would make them a plausible couple would be the one at the very end of Season 2, and they go back on that pretty fast.
I'm not saying that I necessarily expected it to happen, but I could see how it could. "Two people who hate each other but get to know the other better and hook up" is not exactly an unheard of in literature.
They don't get to know eachother better until 3 episodes from the finale. When this happens in literature, the characters spend the whole book getting to know one another a little better - it doesn't just happen at the end and then they're a couple, OMG.
I just wish this fandom could get over it. Avatar fandom has yet to learn to live and let live, as other fandoms have, and I find it extremely immature.
Uh-huh.
Re: 127
Because I don't actually give a shit whether or not you think it's a plausible couple. I don't think Sokka/Azula, to use your example, is a plausible couple, but if people see it I don't go around crowing about how they're idiots and clearly aren't watching the same show as I am. I think they are and they're seeing it differently than I, which I'm totally cool with.
My point is that I think declaring a ship invalid on all counts and its fans delusional because it didn't end up canon and because you don't personally see it is a bad attitude to take on non-canon shipping.
Do you know when most of the Zuko/Katara fans sprouted up? In the "I'll save you from the pirates" scene.
... So? That's when I started shipping it, too. At that point I didn't ship it because I thought it would be cute and fluffy and full of rainbows and sunshine. It was dangerous and forbidden and hot. But as the two of them developed as characters I thought they could evolve into people that could have a functional relationship.
And you know what? I was right. Not a romantic relationship, but Zuko and Katara came through their differences as people and found the similarities in their characters and formed a friendship. Katara gave the same kinds of friendly, caring pep-talks she's been giving to her close friends to Zuko when he was worried about facing his uncle. Katara was the first person Zuko thought of when he needed someone to help him take down Azula. They both saved each others lives. I think their friendship is only going to grow stronger.
So, if you wanted a run-down of why I thought this was a plausible couple, it was because I saw chemistry in their interaction in the first season and because I could see that their characters might reach the point they actually did reach in canon, and I don't think it's absurd to think that a friendship such as Zuko and Katara have could develop into romantic feelings. It didn't happen within the scope of the show, but I think it could happen down the line. They're young, after all.
They don't get to know eachother better until 3 episodes from the finale.
Right. But we didn't know that was going to be the case in s2. I agree that by some point in s3 Katara/Zuko was clearly and definitively not going to happen. I don't care. I still ship it.
Besides, I was actually perfectly fine with the way their relationship ended in the finale. I think their friendship is awesome. I was less pleased with Katara/Aang and Zuko/Mai, because I didn't buy it. Believe me or don't, but I actually shipped both Katara/Aang and Katara/Zuko until DoBS, but I couldn't buy the development of Katara's feelings at some point and therefore couldn't like Katara/Aang.
And it's fine if other people did. It's fine with me if people like Katara/Aang. Like I said, live and let live. I get really sick of not being extended the same courtesy.
Re: 127
My point is that I think declaring a ship invalid on all counts and its fans delusional because it didn't end up canon and because you don't personally see it is a bad attitude to take on non-canon shipping.
That's because people who ship Sokka/Azula never say that it's a plausible couple in canon. Frankly, I didn't call anybody stupid for shipping Zuko/Katara - I called them stupid for thinking it was plausible that the show would go in that direction, which is something entirely different. I can see the hypothetical appeal of Zuko/Katara, sure. That doesn't mean it stood a snowball's chance in hell and the sooner people admit to that, the better. There's nothing wrong with non-canon shipping, but stop insisting it was so close to canon.
So, if you wanted a run-down of why I thought this was a plausible couple, it was because I saw chemistry in their interaction in the first season and because I could see that their characters might reach the point they actually did reach in canon, and I don't think it's absurd to think that a friendship such as Zuko and Katara have could develop into romantic feelings. It didn't happen within the scope of the show, but I think it could happen down the line. They're young, after all.
But why would you have thought it was a plausible couple in canon? What was it that happened that made you think "Oh, okay, maybe they'll ditch everythinig they've done with Aang and Katara and instead go with Zuko and Katara," right up to the very end, the day before the finale? I mean, sure, I can see why they might be romantically attracted to one another and where they might have chemistry. But I can say the same thing of Azula and Ty Lee - there's a difference between being able to see and like a couple and believing it will be canon.
Right. But we didn't know that was going to be the case in s2. I agree that by some point in s3 Katara/Zuko was clearly and definitively not going to happen. I don't care. I still ship it.
Then why are you arguing with me? There's nothing wrong with shipping it (though personally I think it would be an extremely unhappy relationship). The problem is, as the secret says, that people who thought it was going to happen and then got indignant about it were just deluding themselves.
Besides, I was actually perfectly fine with the way their relationship ended in the finale. I think their friendship is awesome. I was less pleased with Katara/Aang and Zuko/Mai, because I didn't buy it. Believe me or don't, but I actually shipped both Katara/Aang and Katara/Zuko until DoBS, but I couldn't buy the development of Katara's feelings at some point and therefore couldn't like Katara/Aang.
Personally I think the finale could have gone without shipping, but I understand that since it was a priority of the fandom, it became a priority of Mike and Bryan.
Re: 127
No, that's actually because I don't care whether or not they think that. Let them think what they want, who am I to judge? I'll just be over here, shipping something different.
But why would you have thought it was a plausible couple in canon? What was it that happened that made you think "Oh, okay, maybe they'll ditch everythinig they've done with Aang and Katara and instead go with Zuko and Katara," right up to the very end, the day before the finale?
Up until the end? Um, I didn't, and I explicitly stated that?
I've already said why I think Katara and Zuko, as people, could have worked. As for Aang and Katara? Because I didn't actually see much on her end. Because The Guru actually gave a pretty good reason why he might have to give her up, and I think the Avatar State is still a weird plot hole that never got closed up and should have. Because sometimes the hero doesn't get the girl, even if he loves her, and that's okay, and Avatar was a series that was different from a lot of the formulaic kid's series and broke stereotypes and could have gone that way.
By the sometime in the beginning of s3, it obviously wasn't going to happen because there wasn't enough time. During s2, though, yes, I thought it was possible.
Then why are you arguing with me?
Probably for the same reason you're arguing with me?
Personally I think the finale could have gone without shipping, but I understand that since it was a priority of the fandom, it became a priority of Mike and Bryan.
If that's the case, that they were influenced by fandom, well, they shouldn't have been. I actually have less respect for it that way: you should stick with your story, regardless of what other people think.
Re: 127
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Re: 127
Well, it worked for Ron and Hermione.
Stating the facts is saying "It was Katara and Aang, and that's what the writers were going for." Being smug is saying "It was sooo stupid to've ever seen anything else!"
They "wound up" being wrong for each other. But then, most of us did not watch all the way to the final episode totally expecting it. Actually, none of us ever "totally" expected it.
It's not like the text of a show can only be seen by one interpretation and one interpretation only. I mean heck, Merchant of Venice. Just what ships was Shakespeare trying to write there?
Re: 127
So this isn't the first time you've lost a ship war, huh?
I'll bite: Ron and Hermione had arguments and disagreements. They were never on opposite sides, never fighting out of genuine malice, and they were never trying to kill eachother. Zuko and Katara have made attempts on eachother's lives.
Stating the facts is saying "It was Katara and Aang, and that's what the writers were going for." Being smug is saying "It was sooo stupid to've ever seen anything else!"
And yet you refuse to answer - what was there to see? What was it that led you to believe it wouldn't be Aang and Katara? As the secret says, it's like looking an election poll that puts one side by 10 points and concluding that the other side will win.
They "wound up" being wrong for each other. But then, most of us did not watch all the way to the final episode totally expecting it. Actually, none of us ever "totally" expected it.
I don't even know what you're trying to say here, but their personalities did not change so drastically from S1 to S3 that you couldn't see from the start where that would wind up going.
It's not like the text of a show can only be seen by one interpretation and one interpretation only.
This is true. However, if you are going to say something is plausible, you need to supplement your argument with something factual. The show is up for interpretation, yes. THat doesn't mean I can say that there's a chance that Sokka and Azula could have wound up together or that Aang is actually a cyborg and expect to be taken seriously.
Re: 127
Considering I wasn't participating in the actual war, and considering that I couldn't care less who anyone in Harry Potter ended up with, um...what?
(Okay, fine, my Harry Potter OTP was Fred Weasley/a pulse, so I guess I lost that one).
Didn't I answer it? I could swear I did. There wasn't anything like "Oh I like him/her" to see, fine, but there were little things that could have been seen as foreshadowing, interactions that snapped, etc.
It was never about one ship "winning" for me. Aang and Katara had a sweet ending. But for a while, it didn't seem completely unthinkable. And I'm sorry, but it seems to me a lot more plausible to think a wellrounded guy and a well-rounded girl might get together in a kid's fantasy show than thinking that a well-rounded guy and a psychopath could get together, or a kid could be a cyborg, or that they'd throw a m/m relationship in.
It just seemed plausible, okay. I'm sorry if it didn't to you, though it sounds like you didn't care about the ships, so I don't get why your pants are in a twist if someone says it seems plausible. People have gone and written why before on f!s. Some of us just saw chemistry. Some of us thought it just didn't seem that out-landish. I thought that their two personalities might actually compliment each other. Gosh. So sorry I was wrong.
Re: 127
What were they?
But for a while, it didn't seem completely unthinkable. And I'm sorry, but it seems to me a lot more plausible to think a wellrounded guy and a well-rounded girl might get together in a kid's fantasy show than thinking that a well-rounded guy and a psychopath could get together, or a kid could be a cyborg, or that they'd throw a m/m relationship in.
Then clearly you understand my point about how some viewings of the show are more valid and likely than others?
It just seemed plausible, okay. I'm sorry if it didn't to you, though it sounds like you didn't care about the ships, so I don't get why your pants are in a twist if someone says it seems plausible.
Because it isn't true. Seeing chemistry is not the same as thinking that they're going to end up together in canon. Seeing chemistry is perfectly alright. The amount of butthurt Zutarians exhibit over their pairing being non-canon is not alright, it's absolutely ridiculous.
Re: 127 OP
Re-watch "The Fortune Teller". That was season one.
Re: 127 OP
And around that time, wasn't she also attracted to both Jet and Haru? Non-relationships that didn't last a whole episode even, but the fact that she was looking romantically at other guys and fairly oblivious to Aang's advances tells me, again, that she wasn't thinking of Aang that way until he made it really obvious.
...granted, as far as I'm concernred, the strength of Aang/Katara really has no bearin on the plausibility of Zuko/Katara (I always saw it as being sort of a 3:1 chance, really). I'm just saying.
127 OP
(Anonymous) 2008-11-25 01:39 am (UTC)(link)Projecting, much? The only "attitude" in my secret, which most people seem to have gotten, is that it was obvious that Zuko/Katara was one hell of a long shot and it was dumb to be completely convinced of it.
Of course, as someone who is not a big fan of the pairing or anything, just of the show itself, I do think it was obvious it was going to be Aang/Katara, and I am not really sure why so much of fandom was determined to resist it. But that's a story for another day.
I didn't say "obvious" or anything like that. There is a huge difference in believing "Hey, maybe they're gonna go for this! Oh man, it's working!" and saying "Well, obviously, they're totally going for Zutara."
So why were you so peeved at my secret? I didn't say that people convinced McCain/Palin were going to win reminded me of Zutara shippers who thought it might happen (although I still think that was pretty silly). I said they reminded me of Zutara shippers who were convinced it was going to happen. Who did exist. Most of the rest of the commenters seem to have caught that distinction.
The similarity isn't "these people both disagree with me, whether fandom-wise or politically, ha ha let's mock them!" The similarity is "these particular two groups of people had both locked themselves into an echo chamber where they ignored all reasonable facts and instead built and clung to a narrative that resembled neither canon nor reality."
The reason that I admit that the thoughts in the secret were mean-spirited isn't that I think it's meeeeean to say that anyone who seriously thought that the secret truth of the show was Zutaaaraaaa was deluding themselves. I just feel somewhat bad about comparing fellow members of fandom to people who supported taking away the rights of human beings and continuing to drive my country into ruin.
But I'll be honest here. I sniped at your comment, and I'd be willing to bet so did some of the others, because I am tremendously sick and tired of non-canon shippers of various stripes nursing a martyr complex over how bawwww, those no-good canon shippers are mean to them for making fun of their crazier shipmates. Never mind that most of the people doing the fun-making aren't even "canon shippers," they're just people who enjoyed the show and boggle at the craziness spouted by the more extreme non-canon shippers.
Re: 127 OP
If we're going to be fair, a crazy shipper is a crazy shipper.
Re: 127 OP
The reason I have the "martyr complex" I suppose is that any time I see a glimpse into the online fandom (which is only here), it seems to be saying how very stupid Zutara was. I see it in Doctor Who fandom, where oodles of people can do nothing but froth at the mouth over Doctor/Rose, leaving the saner shippers confused and a little frightened. And I'm tired of fandom being such a bitter place, where people love to focus on the negatives.
I tried never to get involved in the ship-wars because I thought fandom should be a more inclusive, happy place. It doesn't happen, it won't happen, but hey, I can dream.
The secret pushed my buttons less because of shipping and more because I'm uncomfortable mocking anyone who sincerely believes anything, no matter how stupid. I've seen it too much in IRL to have any taste for it in fandom.
Re: 127 OP
(Anonymous) 2008-11-26 01:12 am (UTC)(link)Re: 127
Re: 127 OP
My biggest problem with this secret is that you seem to think that anyone who saw things a little different is an idiot (and one would have to have been an idiot to think McCain had a chance of winning, by the end of things), which is mean-spirited and wholly unfair. There are plenty of intelligent people in the Katara/Zuko fandom.
127 OP
(Anonymous) 2008-11-25 01:40 am (UTC)(link)It doesn't say anything about "anyone who saw things a little different." I specifically used the phrase "convinced they were going to hook up" rather than "thought they might hook up" for that exact reason.
Re: 127 OP