fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5344 ]

[ SECRET POST #5344 ]

⌈ Secret Post #5344 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 24 secrets from Secret Submission Post #765.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Cindy rocked back and forth as she waited for Mira. Mira took awhile, but soon Cindy saw her come out the door and smiled at Cindy, who waved back.

"Ready to go?" Cindy asked, and Mira nodded. Mira was indeed ready to go, twirling in place to show Cindy that she was. Cindy nodded and held out a hand to Mira, and Mira took it as both raced through the rain to Cindy's car. They both climbed in, and Cindy turned it on.

"What's good on the radio?" Mira asked, and Cindy just connected an MP3 player. Cindy was going to play all her Mira's favorite tunes on this big day.

Sorry but after this Mira and Cindy stop looking like names. Epithets are fine sparingly, because it diversifies the writing and doesn't seem as stilted. And just using names and pronouns is confusing when you have two people of the same gender in the same scene.

I wonder if there's a gap in perception here on the part of the reader and the writer. Because just reading your excerpt, I didn't feel too bothered (maybe if it had gone on for pages and pages...) but I have definitely been there, thinking, "This name will drive me crazy if I have to type it one more time."

That doesn't really bother me all that much, tbh. But there are ways of rearranging sentence structure where you don't have to use the names that much.

"Cindy rocked back and forth as she waited for Mira. Mira Whatever she was doing in there took awhile, but soon Cindy saw her come out the door and smile and wave. ~~at Cindy,~~

Cindy waved back, and asked, "Ready to go?" ~~Cindy asked, and~~
Mira nodded, twirling in place to show Cindy that she was, taking her hand and together they ~~Cindy nodded and held out a hand to Mira, and Mira took it as both~~ raced through the rain to Cindy's car. They both climbed in, and Cindy turned it on.

Oops, strike fail, sorry. Should go like this:

"Cindy rocked back and forth as she waited for Mira. Whatever she was doing in there took awhile, but soon she came out the door and smiled and waved.
Cindy waved back.

"Ready to go?"

Mira nodded, twirling in place to show how ready she was, then took her hand and together they raced through the rain to Cindy's car. They both climbed in, and Cindy turned it on.

Problem: which her is taking which her's hand? Is mira grabbing Cindy's? Because it can change context of the scene. Like, that's the problem. Yeah, it's a scene, but it's not entirely clear in spots. That's the point I'm making.

DA - In AYRT's example it's clear that it's Mira taking Cindy's hand.

If it's not clear who is performing the action or saying the thing in a scene, the first thing to do as a writer is ask whether you could focus more on characterization to help the reader intuitively know who is speaking/acting. But even if you can't think of a way to make it more character-adherent, sometimes you just have to pick your battles and accept that there may be brief points where who said what gets a tiny bit blurry, and what's really important is to make sure those points don't occur during particularly important moments.

Even in original novels that are relatively well-regarded I sometimes find myself counting back dialogue in an every-second-line-is-his-which-suggests-this-line-is-probably-the-other-guy's way. It's not ideal, but as long as it doesn't happen too often it doesn't ruin the story for me, or even the scene. But epithets (except in the very specific instances where they make sense) do ruin the story for me. They stick out like a store thumb and scream "WEAK WRITING!" from the top of their lungs.

> They stick out like a store thumb and scream "WEAK WRITING!" from the top of their lungs.

You sound like all those "said is dead" people who give the shittiest writing advice because it's all you got growing up and all that matters is how blad white bread Le Criteeks see it, even tho they're inherently biased toward bland white cis men's writing.

Oop, guess I touched a nerve.

Just know that if you're using epithets in your writing, you are losing a significant percentage of your adult readers right out of the gates.

Why so rude?

I think if you actually read widely and diversely, you'll find it's NOT only white cis men who are interested in what can be done with things like narrative voice and sentence structure.

The example you gave was bland and white bread, because there's no variation in the sentence structure, and no flow to it. "Character did this. Then Other Character did that." It's very flat.

In the end, there's no advice that can replace reading a lot of various kinds of really good stuff - there's a LOT of fantastic writing out there by people who aren't cis white men, especially in the SFF field - and actually study their technique and learn how they create mood and flow in their writing. You will almost never see a lot of epithets in high-level pro writing, regardless of the background of the writer.

listen just because you're bad at writing doesn't make epithets good. learn how to use pronouns it's not hard

That's unnecessarily rude. And just because they might have had trouble making up a perfect example to explain their views doesn't actually mean they're bad at writing.

You were also too busy making personal attacks that you didn't make an actual case against epithets. Also, you don't seem to get that AYRT already said pronouns might not work as well in situations like their example with two girls.

that writing anon showed is either atrocious on purpose or on accident so i don't see what's gained by taking it as a serious example of the issue.

i saw what anon said and if they can't structure their sentences in a way that isn't either confusing or using names instead of pronouns every single time then yeah, bad writing, back to the drawing board.

i don't need to make an actual case against epithets because they're fine if they're used in a meaningful way. fanfics writer just love to spice up their writing arbitrarily and that's how you get cerulean optics

Eh, fair enough.

I already said the problems with pronouns when you have two or more people of the same gender in the same scene. Or do I need to painstakingly point that out, too?

"Mira posed and twirled for Cindy, who clapped. She took her hand and then they ran out to the car."

Cool. Which her took which her's hand? Did Cindy take Mira's because she was the last girl mentioned in the sentence, or did Mira take Cindy's hand because she's the main subject of the last sentence? Because this is bog standard writing that isn't considered "bad." Most people just gloss over it and don't care.

"Mira posed and twirled for Cindy, who clapped. She took her hand and then they ran out to the car."

DA - The anon above literally showed you how to structure this to make it clear who took whose hand. You actively changed their example to make it unclear again.

Look, honestly, I haven't read your writing so I can't know how good it is. And obviously good and bad have a fairly high degree of subjectivity to them. But I will say that almost always, frequent use of epithets in a scene between characters who already know each other, does correspond to weak writing.

I have... Never said use epithets a lot? I have literally said, multiple times, it's fine to use them sparingly? There's such thing as middle ground! Christ, keep tiltin' at windmills, Don Quixote, they're still not giants.

Use of any epithets outside of some very specific circumstances is likely to hurt how your writing is perceived by readers--particularly experienced adult readers. I was trying to be gentle with you by saying "a lot" of epithets, but you are apparently too defensive to take a hint right now.

Listen to all the good advice ITT or don't, but know that if you are using epithets in your fanfic, you are almost certainly losing a significant number of your adult readers, and that eliminating those epithets will only improve how your work is perceived by readers.

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[ SECRET POST #5344 ]

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