fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #780 ]

[ SECRET POST #780 ]

⌈ Secret Post #780 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.

[Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure]

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110.

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111.

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112.

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113.

[ShakespeaRetold; The Taming of the Shrew]

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114.

[Bones]

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[Torchwood]

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119.

[Skins, Freddie]

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[resized]

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[Nintendo Power, Nester comic]

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[the lonely island, jorma/andy]

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125.

[Are You Afraid of the Dark?]

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[Bill Hicks]

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131.

[Dollhouse]

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132.

[Dr. Horrible]

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133.

[Merlin]

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134.

[Pride and Prejudice]

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135.

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[Roger Bart]

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138.

[Demon Knight]

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[Candy]

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[Knights of the Old Republic]

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[Dr. Who]

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[Rockers]

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[Soul Eater]

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[Scrap Heaven]

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[Avatar]

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[Erin Kelly, Loving Annabelle]

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[Joe Biden]

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[Bleach]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 13 pages, 320 secrets from Secret Submission Post #112.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I would like to comment that even though the genders are reversed, those are both examples of straight people fetishizing gay people, which, as a gay person, does not sit well with me at all :/

Not every single slash fic is about "teh hawt ghey sex!" Personally speaking, I prefer stories that don't focus on "teh sex" because I ship people based on their interaction and dynamic and seeing that play out in different scenarios in fic is interesting to me.

I know that; I've enjoyed slash fic at times, and I know I've enjoyed femslash written by men. I don't agree with the generalization the OP is making. It's the "it's not for you, you have no right to be bothered by it" attitude that I find really bothersome.

I don't think the attitude really is "it's not for you, you have no right to be bothered by it," as much as that it isn't supposed to be realistic. There isn't a reason to get offended over it. At least it seems like yaoi/slash writers care enough about the characters to make them human, even if they mess up at making them always act male. And honestly? Not all yaoi/slash makes one of the characters act like a girl (especially if it's fanfiction and the character doesn't act like that in canon.) Not all yaoi/slash has an obvious seme and an uke. And honestly? The better ones don't. I'm more into slash fic than original yaoi, and I can say that 99% of the time, a good fic is going to keep the characters' canon personalities when they deal with each other.

Saying "gay men don't act like that!!!" at every slashfic in the history of ever is not so much "defending your sexuality" as stereotyping gay people. Not everyone who's gay has a certain personality or certain mannerisms- yeah, it's probably accurate to say that giving a gay couple the power dynamics of a het couple is inaccurate, but most good slash writers don't do that. I write femslash, and if people talked about keeping your girls acting believably like girls, that would sound sexist- so why is it made that big of a deal if our boys are acting masculine all the time?

Also, yeah, I've met gay guys that liked slash and yaoi- the availability of those materials is what helped some of them realize they were attracted to men in the first place. So yeah.

.....I love you. Whoever you are.

Just THIS. Completely.

Well, who has the right to be bothered by anyone's sexuality... gay or straight?

Plenty of gay men fetishize straight guys. Something wrong with that?
Plenty of dyed-in-the-wool lesbians jerk off to yaoi. Is this a problem?

You should recognize that sexuality is not something that straight people appropriate at the expense of gay people, nor vice versa. It's not a zero sum game.

Can people APPROPRIATE sexuality, anyway? Isn't what they feel something that comes from inside of them? Sexual desires can be complex and contradictory. Being "straight" doesn't exclude someone from being queer... just ask a transsexual. I think the bigger problem is not that straight people are "taking advantage" of queer people with their sexual fantasies... the problem is when straight people refuse to accept that this just might make them a tiny bit queer themselves.

Very good point, I was just focusing on the erotic aspect of it. I personally write slash for the character dynamics and occasional messing around with cultural stuff, I've never made it up to actual porn.

I've only written more porny stuff twice, and it's a challenge 'cause even then you're focusing not on the hot but on whether this is what that character would do or think and what not...

I'm just too shy to personally write it, I think. <_<

Lol, that's why I've only written two stories. I just can't 'cause it feels like I'm intruding.

I can handle it in RP when I'm only writing for one character, can't seem to handle two or more. I am strange that way.

Maybe you feel more comfortable writing that one character, in general, than you do writing both of them?

Possibly. With some pairings I can get into the head of one character better than the other -- in writing, I usually just do things from their perspective.

Who says we're straight? I'm bisexual and I have several gay, bisexual, or "check the box marked 'other'" friends of both genders who also slash and enjoy yaoi.

Can't I fetishize myself?

I was responding to your "gay porn for women, lesbian porn for men" statement which suggested heterosexuality. Like I said above, I've read and enjoyed slash myself, and the generalization the OP makes is quite frankly wrong, but I disagree with the idea that gay people aren't allowed to be bothered by the prolific "doin' it wrong" present in yaoi.

I hadn't meant it to suggest heterosexuality as much as demographic it's aimed at.

*shrug* People can be bothered by whatever they want, I just don't think he's got a valid point unless he's disavowing all pornographic depictions of gay people. Personally I just get rather bothered when it starts portraying rape as love and all that garbage.

This is a place in fandom where my LGBTQI-spidey sense and my feminism always collide with each other, and I'm left with something of a headache.

Firstly, I don't think [for the most part] that slash actually has anything to do with real gay male relationships. It's unfortunate but inevitable that it's conflated with male homosexuality because its central image is two men loving/screwing each other.

The thing is though, while my gut instinct is that such appropriation of male bodies is wrong, my line of reasoning breaks down when I try to work out where the harm lies. In the world we live in, female appropriation of the male figure cannot possibly carry the same connotations as male appropriation of the female figure. It's just not possible, because women as a group don't have the power to oppress gay men.

It's also not a case of women aligning themselves with the patriarcy here. Mainstream Western entertainment doesn't slash. That's why women have carved out a space in fandom where slash exists as a subversion of the text, from which they derive a pleasure. I've read arguments that slash is really about writing a character with whom a woman can id without the imperative to demonise, belittle or degrade her - escapism from the mandatory sexism of most entertainment. I've read suggestions that slash is about women embracing sex without having to navigate the power problems of het porn.

I'm not qualified to say if either of these are right. (I personally don't like slash. I don't like it's phallocentrism, and I don't like the way slash-heavy communities marginalise discussions of female characters.) But the possibility that they might be means my hackles get right up when somebody insists it needs to be shut down. Maybe that's my privilege showing though. I know what it is to be a gay woman in the patriarchy - I don't know what it is to be a gay man. Perhaps there is some real harm being done by fandom's love affair with slash of which I'm just ignorant, and on which I need to be educated.

I'm not much of a slasher either; I'm very much a femslasher, and I generally find the female characters more intriguing than the male characters (and gravitate towards series with strong female casts). And since I prefer animanga and video game fandoms the anti-female sentiment and seme/uke stereotypes tend to be more rampant than usual. But there are a few fandoms where I enjoy slash -- Star Trek comes to mind.

You make a number of good points. I'm certainly not calling for a shut-down; I just wish people would be a little more respectful to people who feel that dissonance and dislike it, instead of responding with "lol, tough cookies."

I've read suggestions that slash is about women embracing sex without having to navigate the power problems of het porn.

And yet it's interesting that so many women introduce those power problems into a male/male relationship, often mangling characterization in the process. I don't intend this as an argument or anything, the comment just made me think when I read it.

And yet it's interesting that so many women introduce those power problems into a male/male relationship, often mangling characterization in the process. I don't intend this as an argument or anything, the comment just made me think when I read it.

I think it's less about trying to code m/f gender roles onto m/m couples and just writing what you know - I mean, the media is saturated with m/f couples, so where are you going to get the kind of context and experience necessary to be able to write an m/m dynamic?

I don't think it's about coding one character as the "woman", either. With het porn, the reader is assumed to identify with the woman, but with slash, you don't necessarily identify with the "uke", so to speak. I mean, just look at any number of fangirls squeeing over some cute uke character and - to quote one of the secrets posted here in the last week about Kuroshitsuji - "feeling like a pedo."

Er, I don't really know where I'm going with this, but I think it's more complicated than "Yaoi equals hot dude and chick with dick". Not to say the stereotypes are positive or any less lame, just that it's.... complicated. >_>

I'm of a similar mind - extremely conflicted because there's a lot about slash that bothers me, a lot about fandom cultural norms...but a lot I see benefit in, and overall the idea of shutting down slash/fan culture bothers me far more than the issues I have with it.

I'm not sure I can agree with this, however:

It's just not possible, because women as a group don't have the power to oppress gay men.

I'm wary of sounding like I'm comparing privileges here, and if it sounds like I'm saying "[x] has it worse than [y] so [x] takes precedence, dammit", smack me.

One thing that leaves me conflicted about slash is the culture it resides in, where homosexuality is constantly broken down into that which benefits straight people, and is thus acceptable, and that which does not and should be done away with. Pseudo-lesbian male-gaze porn is the most obvious example of this; but there's also the increasingly common representation of gay man as woman's best friend, where there is value for [stereotypical heterosexual] women in the fashion sense all gay men *obviously* possess, and the insight they provide into the male psyche, without the worry of a sexual relationship to complicate things. There is no value in the Gay BFF's actual homosexual behavior, though, and that is rarely paid any mind.

Straight female objectification/fetishization of gay men certainly doesn't have the same cultural impact as straight male fetishization/objectification of lesbians, but I think it goes a little far to say there is none.

I get what you're saying but at the same time i've seen a million het stories written by gay and lesbian writers. As much as i've seen gay and lesbian stories written by straight men and women.

Everything can be considered a fetish to be particularly honest, yaoi could be an extended fantasy of a bisexual themed threesome (m/m/f), etc.

Just as much as normal sex is a fetish to some, hey; maybe the missionary with a man and woman is all that get's you off. There is nothing wrong with that, it's just your thing.

Yaoi is the modern trashy romance novel, in my opinion, it works for some and it squicks the rest.

Everything can be considered a fetish to be particularly honest, yaoi could be an extended fantasy of a bisexual themed threesome (m/m/f), etc.

I'm suddenly reminded of THE fic that broke me into fanfic porn, in which I read a female OC having a threesome with two commonly paired yaoi guys.

So yeah, I think you have a point. Hm.

Thank you.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #780 ]

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