Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2009-03-30 04:43 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2009-03-30 04:43 pm
[ SECRET POST #815 ]
⌈ Secret Post #815 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
101.
[Weird Al Yankovic and Stephen Colbert]
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102. [repeat]
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103.
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104.
[Yu-Gi-Oh]
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105.
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106.
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107. [repeat]
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108.
[Rachael Maddow]
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109.
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110.
[The Office]
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111.
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112.
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113.
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114.
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115.
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116.
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117.
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118.
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119.
[Phantom of the Opera]
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120.
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121.
[previously linked wrong]
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122.
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123.
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124.
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125.
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126.
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127.
[hunter s. thompson]
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128.
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129.
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130.
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131. [repeat]
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132.
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133.
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134.
[Hotel Babylon]
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135.
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136.
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137. [repeat]
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138.
[jake hurwitz]
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139.
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140.
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141.
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142.
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143.
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144.
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145.
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146.
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147.
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148.
[but why not the men?]
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149.
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150.
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151.
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152.
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153.
[Naruto]
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154.
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155.
[Naruto]
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156.
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157.
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158.
[Jade Goody]
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159.
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160.
[previously linked wrong]
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161.
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162.
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163.
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164.
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165.
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166.
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167.
[High School Musical]
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 11 pages, 275 secrets from Secret Submission Post #116.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 4 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
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125 I don't think a woman has to be kicking ass for me to like her. I don't think men do, either. But then again, I'm not really drawn to shows where kicking ass is the main activity, so there you go.
127 Did you see the documentary? Because having seen it, and what his wife had to say about it, I kinda doubt it.
133 Sometimes people are in it by chance. I used to be on the fandom history wiki merely because of my proximity to a wank—a wank that I didn't participate in. My entire entry seriously was that I shared a room at a con with someone. Also, some people are wanky, learn their lesson, and then move on to a quieter life. I know that I learned that I didn't want to be anywhere near wank ever again. So perhaps you shouldn't be so judgmental.
135 Honey that's what filters are for.
142 That is a great reason to be happy with the finale.
148 Nice comment from Case!
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That's not a character, that's a plot coupon. The male hero solves so many mysteries, or kicks x amount of ass, and he gets one of those as a reward. Or worse, the writers turn an existing female character who used to have a personality into one for him. Then "fandom feminists" start running off at the mouth about how women who don't like these characters OBVIOUSLY hate their vaginas.
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(Anonymous) 2009-03-31 01:23 am (UTC)(link)But yes, that is pretty much exactly it.
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Also, I feel as though I should add that these "plot coupons" instantly become "invalid" as soon as the male hero decides he doesn't want to fuck them. Because god knows, female characters are only relevant or powerful or interesting when they act as fuck-holes for the men. Once that option is gone, they should just die or disappear, because it would be too much effort to write them as PEOPLE first and ~SEXY VAGINAS~ second.
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So, in short, sorry.
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I don't watch HIMYM, so I can't speak authoritatively about Lily and Robin, but from what I can tell they seem to be fully fleshed characters, and fully fleshed people in their own right, which is all that I really ask for in a female character, whether she be a kick-ass-take-names type or not. The problem for me is when female characters get inserted into a show for the sole purpose of being the "love interest" or the "sexy foil" to the main male character, which is an issue that runs rampant in a lot of action/adventure/sci-fi shows. So, for me, that's where I draw the line.
I will admit though that the OP is a little unclear, so I don't think you should have to apologize for walking into this discussion a little confused.
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I also don't think there's anything wrong with liking any character. It's when you hate on other real life flesh and blood women and imply that they hate other real life flesh and blood women and hate their own bodies because they don't like the female characters that you like, or because they prefer slash to het, that I get pissed off and judge you :) You can like women as people in the real world perfectly fine and still be annoyed with the thinly characterised females on some shows or have a kink for gay porn. (IME gals who only like slash regardless of the fandom are usually reading fanfic to get off and are just like the guys who only watch lesbian porn, but nobody says they hate their penises. I do like het, but I generally dislike *canon* het because in most of my geek-oriented fandoms the women are written as Love Interests first, characters second, and are definitely 'supporting cast' if not outright 'plot coupons'.)
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But I like Wincest, so clearly all my complaints about casting and writing of females in SPN must be dismissed because I'm terrified my OTP won't happen. As if I am dumb enough to seriously think they'll do that on primetime network TV. Though in my opinion they came damn close. Very telling when the demon who wanted to seduce Dean away from Sam took the form of a guy, not a girl, and attacked his relationship with Sam, after attacking the love relationships of its earlier victims...things that make you go HMMM....
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Ugh, I'm so with you on Jo! I did not buy the "romantic tension" between her and Dean in the LEAST, so I definitely didn't want that to happen, but COME ON, SPN WRITERS! She could have been an awesome character! If they actually seriously CARED about having good female characters on their show, they wouldn't have dropped her like a hot potato as soon as her and Dean fucking was no longer on the table. They would have pulled up their big boy/big girl pants, admitted that the whole "love interest" thing was a wash, and then written her as a PERSON, someone who has a desire to hunt and be successful at it, who has a desire to follow in her father's footsteps and save people just as much as Sam and Dean do. She could have been the most awesome pseudo-sister character, or a badass competent ALLY character, but nope, oops, she's a GIRL! And we don't know how to write ~girl characters~ unless they're somehow sexually involved with our lead male, or are HOPING to be sexually involved. Because girls don't have any wants or talents or agency outside of being in a relationship with a man, silly goose!
(See also: my raaaaaage about the Sam and Ruby relationship being so heavily sexualized. Way to fucking drop the ball on that one, SPN writers >:/)
And hot damn, what I wouldn't give for Ellen or Missouri to show up again. GIVE THEM TO MEEEE.
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1) That they meant only shows that are male-targeted action shows. I really don't think of DS9 as a show like that, and I guess that photo of Candice Bergen isn't from Boston Legal, eh?
What I said about kicking ass—I don't care for male-targeted action shows. I do like, say, Robin and Lily on HIMYM, and I'm not sure where they would exist on the continuum you've talked about here. Robin was a "love interest" at one time, but is also a lot of other things; Lily's a friend. I'm not even sure Ted counts as the "hero."
If you sense frustration, yeah, I'm frustrated that every time people talk about female characters, they talk about them ONLY in the context of these kinds of shows, of shounen shows whether they're manga or not. I'll take your word for it that apparently they fall into one of two categories. In other shows, especially ones that don't have this male hero, that isn't the case. Those are the shows I watch; those are the female characters I like.
2) Who are these fandom feminists so often referred to? I don't think they're fandom-wide. There's no one in Idolfandom or HIMYM fandom beseeching me to like the ladies. And I don't remember that term floating around back in the day in HP, either.
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I think you said it best in your comment, too, that there are female characters with their own stories that you don't like, but that there are men with their own stories that you don't like, too. That is pretty much exactly how I feel. A character's gender doesn't really have an impact on whether or not I like them.
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part 1
Fandom is primarily oriented toward geeky shows because most of us are geeks. I'm always surprised that shows about people who live in the here and now and have normal, everyday problems even have a fandom, so I'm not surprised that you're frustrated, but it's not because we only like male-targeted shows. Supernatural is becoming more and more female-targeted now that the CW has realised who actually watches it. Moonlight, True Blood and the like are female-targeted. Xena and Buffy (neither of which were my thing particularly, but that's because I am not so fond of bad mythology--I can barely tolerate some of the Supernatural myth-fail) were female-targeted.
2) You're in Idolfandom and HIMYM fandom. Those are definitely shows I think of as shows that people who are not geeks watch. If you were in Supernatural fandom, I guarantee you would be sick to death of these people unless you were one of them--they are always ripping on people who don't like it that the CW casts girls for this show on hotness and tends to drop them if they don't have chemistry with the male leads, and people who enjoy the older female characters that occasionally show up and the male recurring characters more than they enjoy the 18-35 eye candy. Also, many of them only want to hear about your love for poor lost Jo if you agree with them that she should be shipped with Dean because what a lot of them really are is frustrated het-shippers who are annoyed that slash is more popular in the fandom. I am a feminist. I put the quotes around "fandom feminists" because I don't think these people are really all that feminist--they care more about the respect fictional characters get (despite being plot coupons) than they care about respecting the other women who are in the fandom with them. You're also not in bandom, where there are all these huge arguments about musicians' wives and girlfriends that I don't even pay attention to because I don't care. Unless they are making the music, they're not relevant to me. (I got in so much trouble in SPN fandom for saying that about the girlfriend of one of the actors who was in one episode playing a bit part--I didn't care about their breakup or why they broke up because she has no more to do with SPN than the actor who played Random Redshirt 12 in episode 73 has to do with Star Trek.)
part 2
So yeah, it's there in HP, but if you are a big fan of Books 6 and 7 you probably never noticed it because it wasn't directed in your general direction.