[ SECRET POST #5777 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #5777 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 23 secrets from Secret Submission Post #827.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

That's great, but then you have to expect to come up against the creator's explicitly stated intent--which at the time was rare and against network wishes (hell, it still is). Add to that the nature of bi erasure--which is not to say that lesbian erasure isn't also a thing, but these are the words DIRECTLY used by the people who wrote the story--and yes, your headcanon is going to get pushback, regardless which scenes made it into the show.

Like, yes you're welcome to your opinion and reading, but with that it's on YOU to understand the reaction against that reading, and the feelings that drive it, and not repeat over and over that it's homophobic to call out biphobia. I promise that people who want to keep Korra and Asami bisexual are not doing it for the benefit of men, nor are they hating on lesbians (again, source, am lesbian)

[(Anonymous)]

I mostly agree with you, except when it comes to what other fans can and cannot do with a fictional character.

Like, yes you're welcome to your opinion and reading, but with that it's on YOU to understand the reaction against that reading, and the feelings that drive it, and not repeat over and over that it's homophobic to call out biphobia. I promise that people who want to keep Korra and Asami bisexual are not doing it for the benefit of men, nor are they hating on lesbians (again, source, am lesbian)

I understand all these things, including why they feel that way. They are, however, trying to control how other fans do fandom, and that is where I have an issue with them.

[(Anonymous)]

I just don't think it's gatekeeping when someone pushes back on something that actively hurts them. Is it not that fun to be argued against in your fandom? Sure. But it's not homophobic and not the same as not being a Real Fan. If someone steps on your feet, you can say it hurts.

[(Anonymous)]

True. But there is a difference between saying something hurts you, and decreeing that everyone must do fandom your way, or else.

[(Anonymous)]

Nobody was making threats. It hurts to be told that it's not nice to take someone else's candy, but it's not a decree.

[(Anonymous)]

Korra is not their possession, and they don't get to decide how other people can do fandom. They do not own the fandom, as much as they might think they are entitled to because Reasons. The do not get to dictate to everyone else.

[(Anonymous)]

Again, the thing that I really object to is people saying that Korra can *only* be bisexual based *solely* on the presentation in the show. If you are talking about word of God and intent, or you are saying that people can consider Korra either bisexual or lesbian, that's not really what I have a problem with. But when people say that Korra displayed romantic interest in a guy at one point and therefore cannot possibly be a lesbian, then I do absolutely think that's wrong and I have a problem with it.

[(Anonymous)]

Cool, that's not what happened in the old thread. People were arguing oved the fact that Korra was, canonically, bisexual, which yes could go either way, not whether her past relationship defined it. She would still be canonically bisexual if Mako hadn't existed.

Again, it's pointless to argue about HEADCANON and I wholeheartedly agree with you there. But that's another argument that has nothing to do with sexuality, which is what keeps bring thrown around as the core issue and is the reason there is and was so much heat.

[(Anonymous)]

+infinity

[(Anonymous)]

Cool, that's not what happened in the old thread.

It very much is what happened in the old thread. I went and looked it up. Here's the secret thread:

https://fandomsecrets.dreamwidth.org/2547574.html?thread=1079153014#cmt1079153014

The whole conversation started as saying that headcanoning Korra as a lesbian was bi erasure. This post, which was very early on in the discussion, is very explicit about saying that Korra cannot possibly be a lesbian because she has expressed interest in men at one point:

https://fandomsecrets.dreamwidth.org/2547574.html?thread=1079172470#cmt1079172470

Here's two more explicitly saying that the Mako stuff means she has to be bi:

https://fandomsecrets.dreamwidth.org/2547574.html?thread=1079171702#cmt1079171702
https://fandomsecrets.dreamwidth.org/2547574.html?thread=1079172214#cmt1079172214

So, the thread was very much people saying that she could not possibly be a lesbian because of the Mako stuff. That's absolutely what happened in the thread. The word-of-god creator intent stuff only entered the discussion *after* people had already been talking about how the character as depicted was definitely bi and could not possibly be a lesbian. The starting point of the whole discussion was her portrayal on the show.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you!

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you! Either the people here wanking away about how that didn't happen have very poor memories or they were disingenuous from the getgo.

[(Anonymous)]

Love rereading that thread and seeing all the bi erasure being claimed as defense of lesbian life experience, and I say that as a lesbian who used to think I was bi. Christ.

[(Anonymous)]

Can you expand on that? Which posts do you think are bi erasure? Do you think that saying Korra can be a lesbian even if she displayed attraction to a guy at some point in her life is bi erasure?

[(Anonymous)]

I think she absolutely can be, yes. I also think that's not what we see in canon. Speculating based on, hell, my own life experience, I could 100% headcanon a future version of Korra as a self-identified lesbian, but based on what's in the show, a kid watching it would be able to point to "korra likes boys and korra likes girls" pretty definitively.

When I was her age, and when this show came out, all of the information we had was that she (like me) had dated men and women (she even dated just one man and one woman like I had at the time!), so her being bisexual is a perfectly logical thing to assume based on canon. The fact that Bryke stated it explicitly in an announcement (not just some by-the-by interview; they very much wanted to say clearly that Korra was bisexual, and hadn't been allowed to by the studio, so they said it themselves as soon as the show aired) is just a bonus.

The Korra-is-a-lesbian reading simply takes much more extrapolation than the Korra-is-a-bisexual reading, and I say that as someone who has gone through that EXACT journey as a real human person. It is NOT lesbophobic to say Korra is bi based on the information we have. No one was saying lesbians CAN'T EVER have dated men, but a hell of a lot of people were saying it didn't matter that Korra DID. Bisexual people have to face that erasure of their own relationships CONSTANTLY.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree that it's completely reasonable to say that Korra is bi. I don't think that it's lesbophobic to say that Korra is a bisexual. I would even agree that it's probably the easiest way to interpret the character, especially when you take creator intent into account.

But I do think it's lesbophobic to say that she's definitely a bisexual because she expressed interest in men and that, because of that, there's no conceivable way that she could be a lesbian. And I don't see how that's bi erasure.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think anyone was saying "there's no conceivable way", just that with what we have, she wasn't a lesbian. She COULD be! But again, that requires extrapolation and interpretation and an extra step. Likewise, IF she were a lesbian, it COULD be lesbophobic. but that's a step removed from the reality of the situation.

To put it in my real life, if you called me a lesbian at 20, you'd be wrong, even though at 30, I'm absolutely a lesbian and always was, despite my past relationship with a boy. It would not be lesbophobic to call 20-year-old-me bisexual, and I would have at that time called it biphobic to erase my relationships and say they wouldn't matter in the long term, because I hadn't gotten there yet. Does that make sense?

[(Anonymous)]

Secret: Korra is a lesbian
Comment thread OP: she's bi though
Hellish back and forth in the thread: "that's your opinion" "but she dated a man and a woman, that's pretty good for on-screen bisexuality" "oh my god i can't believe you're erasing lesbians who have dated men and claiming only Gold Stars count"

The Mako stuff was brought up as "proof" she was bisexual in canon, and whether you read that as expressly lesbophobic/promoting the idea that only Gold Stars are Real Gays or not is up to you, but it could also easily have been read as simply "in canon, we see her dating boys and girls, which is pretty bisexual at face value"

That does NOT say "anyone who has dated a man cannot possibly be a lesbian". The conversion there and here then quickly devolved into lesbophobia vs biphobia. Dumb then and dumb now.

[(Anonymous)]

I think that this is an incredibly charitable reading of some of the posts in that thread. And that's not necessarily bad but I don't think it lines up with the way that the conversations in the thread have gone overall.

The Mako stuff was brought up as "proof" she was bisexual in canon, and whether you read that as expressly lesbophobic/promoting the idea that only Gold Stars are Real Gays or not is up to you, but it could also easily have been read as simply "in canon, we see her dating boys and girls, which is pretty bisexual at face value". That does NOT say "anyone who has dated a man cannot possibly be a lesbian".

I guess you can read anything you want any way you want. But what the posts actually say is that "[it is bi erasure to call a character a lesbian] when the character has canonically expressed sexual interest in men. Korra likes men and women, full stop." They say "She's bi. She was with dudes in the show too." I honestly do not see how you can read someone saying that Korra is definitely bi because she expressed interest in men in the show and if you disagree you are doing bi erasure, and summarize that as just saying that it's easy to read Korra as bi at face value and better representation than is common for bi characters.

To me, those posts are very unambiguous and definite. They really don't leave any room for interpretation. And I mean, maybe they just misspoke and didn't mean to say that. OK, it happens sometimes. Especially because people have incredibly strong feelings about bi representation for very good reasons and so things get emotionally charged.

But that level of charity doesn't match the tone of discussion earlier ITT. Rather, what we have earlier in the thread is a lot of posts about how the people who thought that it was acceptable to headcanon Korra as lesbian were biphobic. There are a lot of posts about how the people who HCed Korra as a lesbian were insisting that Korra *had* to be a lesbian and that they thought that sexuality is defined by your current partner. There's been several posts that basically sum up the original thread as "some people did biphobia, and then they were gently and reasonably corrected."

I don't think any of that is an accurate reading of the original thread at all. And when I read your post here about the people who thought Korra was bi, and I compare it to the posts in this thread about the people who thought it was OK to headcanon her as a lesbian, the difference in how those posts were interpreted is incredibly stark. It's like night and day.

[(Anonymous)]

And do you think everyone who's arguing that Korra could totally be a lesbian is being rational and kind in all of their responses?

That thread and this one got heated, for sure. I don't think anyone denies that--it's very clearly still a hot topic--but it also absolutely wasn't One Side Being Logical and Reasonable and the Other Side Being All Kinds of Awful. The Gold Star argument, for example, I found to be inflammatory as hell because it put accusations and assumptions into the mouths of the other side.

Basically, you have your reading of the thread and I had mine. People were shit all around.

[(Anonymous)]

it also absolutely wasn't One Side Being Logical and Reasonable and the Other Side Being All Kinds of Awful

Absolutely, people were being irrational and angry on both sides, it was a shitshow everywhere, it was very stupid wank. I have no problem admitting that. But... surely this same point also has to apply to the people who initially said the thread was just people kindly and gently correcting anyone who thought that Korra wasn't bisexual?

I'm fine leaving it in the past and I'm fine admitting that it got way too heated on all sides. I do think it's shitty to go around bringing it up months later as an example of F!S being bigoted and biphobic with no further context. Which is how it was presented and characterized ITT.

[(Anonymous)]

It was presented as an example of bigotry and the OP being "dogpiled". The biphobia/homophobia was brought up after as explanation, But yes.

[(Anonymous)]

People wanted examples of someone crying "bigotry!!" over something that wasn't, and the person being asked provided this as one. Others chimed in on how it totally wasn't, and we were off.

[(Anonymous)]

So were the bi-erasure accusations. Those were also inflammatory as hell, and they started from the very first reply to that secret.

[(Anonymous)]

+billions