fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5872 ]

[ SECRET POST #5872 ]

⌈ Secret Post #5872 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 07 secrets from Secret Submission Post #840.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I didn't enjoy it, but Star Wars is producing enough content that I think there's room for something that bleak inside the rainbow. I just don't want grimdark to be Star Wars's new Thing.

... Star Wars has had "grimdark" stuff for literal ages, though. Just read some of the EU novels.

I disagree that it's grimdark, but it is pretty grim, and I respect that it's not everyone's thing.

I really need people to get a grip on what grimdark is, because we can't keep having this discussion. (It's perfectly fine not to like Andor! But Andor is not grimdark.)

Could you... give your personal definition of grimdark?

NAYRT - I'm not going to rewatch it right now to quote an exact passage, but if you are into an exploration of what this concept is and isn't, Overly Sarcastic Productions has a good video on it. It's 19 minutes long, and the link starts around four minutes in, since that's where she starts breaking down a definition. The first 3:40 is basically a brief bit of history and backstory.

https://youtu.be/PQAWBeFnkg8?t=223

Grimdark refers to stories that are focused on darkness. That is their primary intention: they are about the darker side of human nature, and are often driven by nihilistic themes. The Walking Dead (TV) is perhaps one of the most popular examples.

Andor isn't a story about darkness. It isn't interested in nihilism. It's an attempt to ground the fantastical elements of SW in a narrative about the quotidian experience of fascism. It isn't concerned with the aesthetics of grittiness; if anything, it leans into the tone of Cold War spy thrillers.

I get that isn't for everyone. That's cool! But calling it "grimdark" just makes zero sense.

The death, the torture, the random death, the constant and explicit denial that well-intentioned forces of government can do anything useful by legal means, and, oh yes, the death, don't make me think that it's *not* grimdark. (I suppose they didn't throw in rape scenes, there's that.)

Nor did Andor joining the Rebellion by saying, paraphrased, "Either let me join or kill me."

It's kinda revelling in despair, that one.

I just have yet to see a convincing reason why 'grimdark' doesn't apply. No-one's giving me an actual definition here, and no, I don't have the time to watch a 17 minute video because someone can't summarise their own thoughts coherently.

An excessive amount of death, torture and the failure of well-intentioned government officials? Sounds like the first act of A New Hope to me.

I was gonna say. Dark themes have existed in Star Wars since its inception, people just like to conveniently forget about those parts.

Sorry I'm confused - who are the well-intentioned forces of government in Andor?

>explicit denial that well-intentioned forces of government can do anything useful by legal means

You never lived under dictatorship and it shows. It's like a normal reality

and no, I don't have the time to watch a 17 minute video because someone can't summarise their own thoughts coherently.

Oh dear, you've misunderstood. "Can't" doesn't come into it. You're simply not worth more than sixty seconds of my time and energy.

Dark does not equal grimdark; this isn't that hard. Grimdark is a narrative worldview. It's not what happens in your story, but the perspective the narrative takes about the world and how it functions.

Andor never once assumes a nihilistic or hopeless worldview. It's frankly not even that cynical. It simply has the narrative maturity and grace to not frame simple solutions as the answers to complex problems.

Do you...do you think the Empire was ever meant to contain "well-intentioned forces of government"?

Just because bad things happen does not make a narrative grimdark. Death, torture, and pragmatism about the corrupting influence of fascism doesn't make a story grimdark. Chernobyl contains every single one of these things but isn't grimdark. Nor is Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. Nor is Rome. (I could go on, but I'll stop looking at my DVDs, lol.)

As many people have pointed out, grimdark refers to the worldview the creator is trying to advance. It sees a fundamental darkness in human nature. It is about the intent of the narrative, not the sum of its plot points. All of these things happen across the SW universe, but obviously these stories aren't grimdark, either -- they just have a different tone that Andor, so these things hit differently.

+1000

I would say on top of this, grimdark is defined by (a) over-the-top grim darkness aesthetically and (b) the grim darkness is forever and is the baseline to which the universe must always return no matter what happens; ultimately improvement is impossible

Yes, this. The underlying tenet of grimdark things is that no matter what the characters do, it won't change anything in the end. Everything is hopeless and pointless and the story is basically just a temporary struggle against the inevitable.

Which is not what Andor was about, even if there was grimness in the universe.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2023-02-04 02:59 (UTC) - Expand

This is a very good definition! Thank you for adding this.

Andor isn't a story about darkness. It isn't interested in nihilism. It's an attempt to ground the fantastical elements of SW in a narrative about the quotidian experience of fascism. It isn't concerned with the aesthetics of grittiness; if anything, it leans into the tone of Cold War spy thrillers.

Exactly! And given what's going on in my country irl, I'm glad someone tackled these themes.

Take the cynicism of the sequels out of its shiny summer blockbuster clothes and wrap it in Frank Miller's Batman.

How are the sequels cynical?

I mean I guess you could call them a cynical cash grab by Disney, but that's not a comment on the tone of the movies themselves. I really don't think any of them are cynical. TLJ specifically definitely is not cynical.

Now I know you're trolling. TLJ? The "trying to make things better will only make things worse and cause everyone to suffer" installment? lol