fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5953 ]

[ SECRET POST #5953 ]

⌈ Secret Post #5953 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 25 secrets from Secret Submission Post #851.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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05. https://i.imgur.com/00xqLNy.png

The thing with "anti" us that there are people who use it as a self-descriptor, and imo that is kinda the only reliable way to use it

This entire thread is deeply confusing to me.

you're using the term 'troll' incorrectly. Fyi it doesn't mean someone you disagree with. It means spam or personal atacks or absurdity that was posted just to rile someone up and for no other reason.

So this response implies that you think that no one trolls by using the term "anti" incorrectly, and that when people use the term "anti", they're always doing so sincerely even if others disagree.

And I am just curious why you think that, or what on earth the evidence could be that would support that view. Because it definitely seems to me like there are some posts that call things "anti" in a trollish way.

wdym by 'trollish'? This's just another example of people not understanding the word 'troll' right here. You meant provocative.

Idk why you think it implies that. No one and everyone are 2 extremes that have no meaning. I haven't seen the word anti used here often since the tumblr downfall that was ages ago. I have seen the word troll and whatever-phobe far more often.

wdym by 'trollish'? This's just another example of people not understanding the word 'troll' right here. You meant provocative.

I think it's reasonable to call something a troll if it's bad faith and provocative.

I haven't seen the word anti used here often since the tumblr downfall that was ages ago.

I don't have a link at hand and I'm not gonna spend time to find one, so you can dismiss this if you want I guess, but there are multiple times I recall in the past year where I saw it used in ways that seemed wildly implausible and that felt like they were intended to be provocative.

And I don't get what the impulse is for saying out of hand that trolling almost never happens. There is a strong and consistent pattern of doing this (claiming that people are constantly calling troll while dismissing the idea that people make trollish posts) and I don't understand why.

DA - Yup, seconding all of this.

If the secrets here are not worded at least ~a bit provocatively no one would react to them. That is not trolling because there's no malicious targeting and these secrets are not completely made up.

You've seen anti misused more than once in the past, wait for it, year. Which is a lot for you.
You've seen a 'consistent pattern' of dismissing trolling as a not-trolling.
Ok, fine.

It would seem to me that people who deliberately misuse a term just to mess with people are trolling. It's not a personal disagreement, it's people coming in and fucking around with words just for fun and confusion.

Misusing a word is fun, confusing and is meant to cause genuine distress? I can't imagine it. At all.

I'm sure that people that call people they disagree with trolls are just stupid and are not, in fact, trolling me. Because that's not a way to troll someone.

Agreed. Deliberately misusing a word you know is contentious, for the purpose of provocative discord, is a very clear example of trolling.

da
calling anything you don't like trolling is also trolling then.

da
no.

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(Anonymous) - 2023-04-24 23:47 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2023-04-25 02:11 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2023-04-25 02:36 (UTC) - Expand

But how do you know everyone who misuses the word does so deliberately? Maybe they're just as confused an secret!OP.

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(Anonymous) - 2023-04-25 06:21 (UTC) - Expand

Excellent trolling sir.

It’s like abortion. If you don’t want to ban some people from getting abortions, you’re not anti-abortion, and if you don’t want to ban some shipfics, you’re not anti-ship. (Anti-shippers make up shit about “grooming” to try to make fic bans sound necessary, but anti-abortion activists make up shit about “partial-birth abortions,” too.)

This. We can even extend the analogy - pro-choice is basically the same thing as pro-ship. Don't want to read a pairing? Then don't. But don't try to ban me from reading it.

Exactly, this.

I wouldn't call someone who just doesn't like a ship and minds their own business an "anti." It's when they start screaming that a certain ship is "pedophilia," it's "illegal," or otherwise someone inherently immoral to the extent that people having fun with it NEED TO BE STOPPED that the term comes in.

I've seen a lot of people misuse "pro-ship" too. It doesn't even necessarily mean anyone has any ships that are anything other than tame and vanilla themselves, it just means they take a ship-and-let-ship attitude. Exactly like you don't need to have an abortion yourself or even be capable of getting pregnant to be pro-choice, you just need to mind your own business and support others' rights.

This is a great analogy, thank you for it.

Yeah, this. I don't blame people for getting confused thought, I feel both "Anti" and "Proship/Anti-Anti" lost their meaning a while ago.

A great analogy.

Ngl I largely don't understand it because one big backbone to it all is giving a really big fuck about what other people are shipping - and all it reminds me of is my livejournal days where a fandom discussion of your current fandom would ask everyone about their favorite ship/s in good faith, and you'd always get that one asshole on their imagined crusade about why their ship is 'the right ship' and everyone is wrong for immoral reasons or whatever.

It's just a silly notion that everyone must think identical and not only that, but we must be pure with it. The other half of it is that its never been easier to be a spectator of fandoms and its drama than now, especially with twitter/tumblr, that make it so much easier to wander in and give an opinion about something you know nothing about - but hey you're doing it for a greater good/activism/protect the kids/etc when really its just stomping hooves over very niche hobbies and fictional scenarios that matter more than irl problems.

I've just been minding my own business and enjoying fanworks while blocking children or very-online people who think I'm going to have the energy to respond to death threats over fictional things.

I think the reason why "anti" as a term is confusing is because (1) not all fandoms have anti/proship camps/factions/squabbling (so for people outside these fandoms, it's easy to just not know what antis are or why people are so upset over them), and (2) it used to be the case that people openly self-identified as "anti"s, but there has been such a fandom-wide backlash to and criticism of being anti that now people who have the exact same opinions that old antis had will be coy about whether they identify as an anti, often saying outright that they are not an anti (but...).

To me, the core of being an anti (whether or not someone self-identifies as an anti) is believing that one's fictional tastes reflect one's actual values and that writing morally bad content is promoting those bad morals in wider society and therefore is a harmful act. So if you read/write non-con, you are a rape apologist. If you read/write incest, you are an abuse apologist (because all incest is abusive for antis). If you read/write underage content, you are a pedophile.

A lot of antis' terrible behaviors are downstream of this core belief: If you think someone is literally a pedophile based on a fic they posted to AO3, then yes, it is morally justified to call out, warn people about, and harass that person out of fandom. If you think fiction with certain relationships is inherently harmful, then yes, it makes sense to want to ban or suppress content for it or try to demonetize platforms that host such content. These are all things that antis do, and like someone above mentioned, the analogy to other conservative movements like anti-abortion and book-banning campaigns is clear, not necessarily in the opinions themselves (antis are not anti-abortion) but in the notion that a conviction of something being inherently harmful (which is NOT agreed upon in fandom) leading to fervent campaigns that essentially have the effect of curtailing liberties and free speech, and inflicting harm on so-called "bad" people ("abusers"). (Think about the anti-abortion analogy and how anti-abortion people believe it is justified to blow up or threaten to blow up clinics or to issue death threats to doctors who perform abortion procedures, because they believe the moral stakes are so high -- lives are literally at stake here!)

One thing that makes the whole anti/proship debate also more confusing is that antis tend to engage in ridiculous behaviors even beyond what I described above. In particular, antis tend to slot rival pairings into one of the "bad pairing" categories on very tenuous grounds and then accuse anyone who ships that pairing of being a rape apologist/abuse apologist/pedophile. Take for instance Klance shippers in VLD fandom -- they are infamous for accusing a rival ship (Sheith) of being abusive because of a mentor/mentee relationship and an age gap that honestly is not a big issue/would not necessarily be a problem in real life, and then on that basis engage in callouts and harassment because anyone who is a Sheith shipper must therefore be an abuser and predator openly operating in fandom. Or you'd get Amethyst/Peridot shippers accusing the rival Lapis/Peridot ship of being pedophilia because Peridot, while she is a sentient gemstone cartoon character with no clear age or maturity, is nevertheless "child-coded" in her depiction because she is short and has a childish personality.

Even if you did believe in the core beliefs of antis (that what you read/write in fiction maps 1-to-1 onto your real-life sexual tastes and morals), this reaching is unjustified and ridiculous, so antis get widely mocked for this kind of desperate ship war rationalization behavior, which of course is very old in fandom!

But in my opinion, anti vs. proship isn't about how fervently you engage in ship wars (which antis trying to rebrand now make it out to be; by being quiet about their anti status, they now accuse proshippers of "taking shipping too seriously" by having a whole identity based around shipping and therefore being the REAL bad guys in fandom who need to grow up and get a life) but more about what your model is of hurt and harm in fandom (do you think shipping is tantamount to abuse and is hurting real people?) which tends to lead to unpleasant and antisocial behaviors if you think posting noncon/incest/underage fanfiction to AO3 is essentially being a groomer/abuser.

this is a great comment that summs it up perfectly, thank you!

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