fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #6487 ]

Okay, so, this is a debate I've had with a lot of people and I'll like anyone's take on this. Okay, so imagine this scenario: we have an earth in which merfolk exist and they can do the thing where they can grow legs whenever. How come then, they don't rule the world in this scenario with their ability to exist and therefore hold territory, on both land and sea?

I have seen worlds with merfolk and normal humans and for some reason the merfolk are relegated to stone age and some parts of the ocean.

I mean, they can't have fire or electricity underwater so that'll limit their ability to cook/forge/ect.

And if they want to use those things they can't spend most of their time under water and then they quit being merfolk. At best they just become humans who are pretty good at long sea voyages because they won't drown.

I figure once they've gotten technologically advanced enough they could create air pockets for those type of things and until then you primarily use beach areas for towns that are half-submerged.

Although this would probably cause an issue of their main cities being probably border towns.

If they're cities and industry and food is all on land why would they bother going to sea? And if they have cities in air bubbles underwater they aren't really merfolk with fish tails etc. They're Atlanteans, which are also cool but different. If you mean they just have little bits of air around the oven/furnace/computer then like... how would they get to that point? If you need high tech force-fields and o2 extractors to make iron how are you making the force-fields?

The answer is of course magic but we like to set magic and technology as opposite ends of a spectrum so we're back to the same circle.

Lol you're right about magic.

As for why water, it could be that for their health they need to be submerged some of the time or it could simply just be tradition/cultural. "We are from the water and stay in the water."

If magic and technology are around do you think that would give them the advantage then?

Lol, the ultimate point is that it's fictional so it can go any way you want it to <3

All of those are perfectly good reasons why a culture would want to stay amphibious. But go with me here: how many amphibians can you think of? We've got frogs, salamanders, and other little slimy guys. There are tons of animals that spend part of their time at sea, otters/snakes/lizards/seals/etc, but these guys are localized to nearby water and are often at a disadvantage on land. Being amphibious isn't the winningest of survival strategies.

Land and sea are just *really* different environments and it takes really *really* different skills/abilities/strategies to survive in either. Underwater the Merfolk can't use fire, they can be attacked by giant creatures coming from 3 dimensions, and water is slowly degrading their tools. Building structures and storing supplies would be very difficult once the water gets too deep to act as a base. (Although I suppose they could have drifting structures, wouldn't that be cool.) Above water they're now facing potential foes who spend 100% of their time on land and thus have more skills/abilities/strategies based on their surroundings. Land-dwellers have experiences with walls and arrows and wheeled carts and woodworking, things that are ineffective under water, and their inability to breath water or scent a drop of blood in the current doesn't slow them down. They've got the home-field advantage even if they have the same homes just because they live there full time.

So! Time spent in the water leaves them weaker on land while time spent on land leaves them weaker in the water. Ultimately I see Merfolk sticking to the water where they have a concrete advantage over the other sealife (tool usage, trade, fingers, etc) and maintaining minimal trade presence in port towns and using very small islands to store things vulnerable to water like paper, metals, or other liquids.

Now, magic. If they have magic that's an advantage! Sure. But do other creatures have magic too? Is their magic tied to the sea or water? How far is that effective range? You, as a world builder, could easily stack the deck and give Merfolk an empire that stretches over land and sea but their range will be limited based on their travel spreads and proximity to the ocean. Like, if I *really* need to be in the sea at the full moon I can never travel more than 2 weeks from the sea, and even then I'd just turn around and head right back.

I personally like the idea of stone age Merfolk because stone works perfectly well under water and doesn't have the issues metals would. But also mermaids aren't real and they can function any way you want them do =D

SA - whoops, took a break half way through and ended up having the same thought in the first and last paragraph. I am *not* proofreading anything =D

Re: The merfolk conundrum

forgottenjester - 2024-10-10 03:03 (UTC) - Expand

You put a lot of thought into this and I really appreciate it. I have to agree with you about the differences in environment and how they would have to either stick to one or, I suppose, possibly create different castes for each. That in itself then creates even more issues and questions.

Also, the idea of floating warehouses is really interesting. Although it does make me wonder if there is a way for them to work their way up the technological tree in a different way from humans that would allow for them to stay submerged. However, I don't think I know enough about technological growth to speculate on how that could happen without me throwing in magic, which you already covered.

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Re: The merfolk conundrum

forgottenjester - 2024-10-11 00:57 (UTC) - Expand

Depends on history, I think, and how/when merfolk tried to leave the water and who got there first. So there's no real answer.

Like all Merfolk weapons and defenses are designed to function in water. They'd have to redesign from the ground up (pun not intended) to get stuff that functions on land, and they'd be competing with land people who have had that stuff for centuries if not millennia. What are Merfolk going to do against horse archers when they have no experience with horses or archery and everyone else is moving at 4x their run speed and projectiles come at them at seemingly impossible speeds without water resistance? What are Merfolk going to do about castles they can't simply swim over and attack from above any more? How do they get everything they have adjusted to land gravity when their heavy armor is suddenly 2x heavier? Are they going to train on the shore for years and expect to not be disturbed?

The further back they emerged, the better chance they have, but unless it was extremely far back, their chances are pretty slim at taking over. And usually stories have them as being secluded and hiding for some reason for a while.

It really depends.

Do you think if they were able to control the beach or islands they could then learn land war tactics and mount an invasion?

Maybe, on a beach or island? What are they gonna do in mountains or plains or deserts or tundra?

SA

Imagining pre-industrial merfolk emerging with (too) heavy armor and tridents and being killed by basic bows/arrows or basic muskets and thinking it's magic teleportation projectiles would be funny though. Nothing moves that fast in water, wtf is going on!? How are they doing that? Instant death? No dodging??

I was thinking once they have land they could hold then they could slowly adapt to the humans ways of war. I see the mountains being the hardest for them to fight with. If they are of human intelligence and neighbors to humans they could easily spy or learn from them enough to then plan an invasion. I think they then have a fool-proof of "even if we lose we can just retreat to the ocean and the humans can't follow".

Would it even be worth it for them to conquer? Is the risk/cost worth the rewards? What would they get on land to bring back to support their main civilization in the ocean (that wouldn't rot, rust, or otherwise be unusable in deep water)?

What would they gain from holding and conquering territory that they wouldn't from a short shoreline raid every so often?

I can see how a merfolk dominated world would be possible but you'd need to worldbuild the basis and history for it, just like any other world.

Honestly, I was just wondering why I saw humans as the dominant species every time. If it is possible for merfolk to be dominant then it possible for all variations in-between. I guess I was mostly just stumped by seeing so much "merfolk are few in number and live in small, isolated communities that are so beneath humans" when many have the same level of intelligence as humans and are capable of living on land.

That said, I figure the reason they would be expansionist for more than just beachfront to keep their industries going is simple greed and want of power. People war for a lot of stupid reasons.

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Re: The merfolk conundrum

forgottenjester - 2024-10-10 05:53 (UTC) - Expand

This is an odd debate. I'm not sure I follow the logic here... being able to move around on both land and sea wouldn't automatically or easily translate into being able to conquer and hold territories in both. It's an advantage, but I'm not sure it's that significant of an advantage. You'd still face many of the same problems as any other group existing in that universe re: conquering AND maintaining your rule over a conquered people.

Meanwhile, the argument for being more primitive in terms of technology makes more sense. There's less drive to develop modes of transport underwater when your main way of getting around is swimming. Agriculture and manufacturing (two big factors in how large populations are established and sustained over time) would be limited because of the environment. I can see hunting and a more nomadic lifestyle being prevalent undersea, which is going to limit your population density. Undersea people could have border towns on the coast for that sort of thing, of course, with trade back and forth as well as trade with non-merpeople.

But how would those towns be defended? Where are the armies going to be based? Who's commanding them, paying for their quartering, their salaries, their food/shelter, and how are they getting from one place to another? What sort of weapons are available? If your power base is in a border town or undersea, how are you going to maintain your power as you get further and further away from your base? What sort of system of government do the merpeople have and how is that maintained in each separate environment? What reason would they have for invading other territories in the first place?

I would never accuse myself of being particularly intelligent. So I'm sorry if I come off as dumb when I ask for this kind of debate on this premise. I just figured if there was a tribe of humans capable of water domination and the the potential for land ownership too then would they not be capable of being very powerful? Most merfolk are portrayed at a human-level intelligence and having similar goals/personalities. So to me they're like humans but with more shit going on.

I guess I assumed they'd at least try to be on the same technological level as humans because the two are neighbors. While the two may not be in competition for survival in their natural habitats, normally I found kingdoms and such don't want to be able to be bowled-over should the other decide to be aggressive.

And that is the hardest part. I could see then attempting to maintain some land to keep up with air-based luxuries and sciences. If this is what they want then why couldn't they maintain a defense in the same way other human coastal towns do?

It's not a dumb question, just... maybe a bit of a leap in logic? Like I said, being able to live both underwater and on land is an advantage, but I'm not sure it's so big of an advantage that it would lead to world domination. There are just too many other factors involved, least of all being the issue of whether or not merpeople would want to dominate the world just because they can live in both types of environments. After all, look at our modern world. The technology exists for people to survive in all sorts of environments, but that doesn't mean people want to do so in great numbers. What's driving the merpeople, then?

I do wanna honestly say thank you for taking the time to talk this out with me. You've made a lot of good points and made me think in a new way other people haven't.

Yeah, there are a lot of what-if factors. Every time I have this conversation someone brings up a whole new perspective I never even thought of before! It's exciting.

As for what's driving them beyond greed and want of power? Hmm, could be racism or maybe they're just a warlike people. Oh! Or there could be something deeper in the ocean preying on them making the shallows and land technically safer. I suppose it could also be a want to not be left behind. There are a lot of reasons and I suspect you or I could come up with more. Each would most likely alter the way they approach and view the land and its people.

No problem, it's been fun talking with you!

That's an interesting possibility, especially the predator driving them towards shallower waters and/or land. (I'm focusing on that, because there are plenty of human groups who are war-like or racist, but haven't managed to achieve world domination for many reasons.) But it does bring up more potential issues... I'd think in that case, the main obstacles to domination would be:

* they're stuck between land and deeper ocean, with nowhere to retreat to. Strategically, that's not a desirable position if the border towns are attacked.

* There's also the question of how a deep sea predator might affect some of the economic backbones of coastal towns: fishing, ports (with accompanying taxes) and trade via sea.

* the possibility that they're behind human technology, or that their technology isn't suited for life on land, much less a long term, long range war

* lack of allies if they haven't established much of a power base on land - humans have had a lot more time and opportunity to establish cities, political alliances, resources, etc. than the merpeople, presumably. That's going to be a much bigger advantage than being able to exist in two environments.

If the predator theory proves true they would essentially end up fight a war on both fronts. It would almost be wiser to try and just make a break for it and be a swarm of refugees to land. If that was the case I could only see them waging war instead out of pride and a fear that being a refugee would be worse than the monster.

The rest are good points too. Such a position would mean that it may be more beneficial to be sort of trade their services to humans for sanctuary. They could help guide boats or get things off the sea floor for aid.

There is another option. They could create an agreement with Humans to form a sort of protection ring. "Help us make sure this doesn't get to you," type of thing.

They all died of mercury poisoning.

Oh, that's why they went crazy first.

The merfolk might not like spending too much time on the land, or there could be a prejudice against it in merfolk society, they might see those who spend too much time on land as forgetting where they came from or becoming like landfolk. I guess that would limit how many merfolk would want to spend time on land, and how long they spent there.

This could happen. It could also be the other way around where land-dwelling mer are seen as superior.