[ SECRET POST #1174 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1174 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

April 1st Submissions Post is open!

Secrets Left to Post: 08 pages, 185 secrets from Secret Submission Post #168.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: YES. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?

[r0ck3tsci3ntist.livejournal.com]

Ok, I might wrong but this statement makes me think that you are concerned about how the comm is perceived because of those links on the page. I think I understand what your feelings are - though, like I said, I'm not sure.

It does seem, if the long thread of anon comments are anything to go by, that a lot of other people feel the same way. I just find it puzzling because those links don't bother me so much. BUT, I don't write fic, so maybe there's the disconnect. I AM in fact very, very interested in what people from all walks and races in fandom have to say, think and feel because of activities that I am involved in IRL. Personally, I get a lot from them.

But if it's harshing everyone out then I suppose those links should be done away with? We shouldn't even have to look at them sitting there not asking us to click them?

Re: YES. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?

[(Anonymous)]

I appreciate your level-headedness and openness about this topic.

With that said, this is what I want to get across, fundamentally:

Some things might not bother you but does bother other people. (Which, as you said yourself, you've seen in this thread.)

You don't have to agree with their reasons, you don't even have to understand it, but you need to accept the fact that bad blood exists. (Which you have done, which is more than I can say for some people.)

As a comm, you need to decide how to respond to that fact. You can either say, "okay, no more talking about things which make a lot of us uncomfortable". Or you can say, "tough". Both are, in my opinion, valid responses in the logical sense, and both entail logical consequences. What you see in this thread is the logical consequence of the 2nd type of response.

Re: YES. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?

[r0ck3tsci3ntist.livejournal.com]

Sure. But I wonder if people would react the same way if it was, say, a canon female/female pairing and a number of people wanted to discuss lesbian issues in the comm.

This might be OT but what I seem to be hearing, more than the race issue, is that some people seem to think that they are being told HOW to INTERPRET Uhura. They seem to feel that they are being told that they are not capable of interpreting her because of her race. I can understand frustration with that. But I can't speak to whether or not that is valid since I don't follow every single fic on that comm. But what I do feel is the bashing of of certain Mods seems extreme. They are only human and in most cases I think they have behaved quite well. At least, I've seen a hell of a lot worse. LoL Try dealing with DC public schools!

But yeah, it's fandom. And it's a hard place to try to say something you feel is important. Alot of times you wonder if you should even try.

Re: YES. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?

[(Anonymous)]

*sigh*

Your posts are coming off (to this anon) as saying "awww but it's not so bad! it could be a lot tougher! Look at my experiences with DC schools!"

As such, I can't help but feel you are in fact saying "you shouldn't get upset", which flies in the face of good communication.

Repeating "I don't think it's so bad, I've seen worse" is not going to make people any less angry. I am not you. I do not deal with the D.C public schools, nor do I wish to (although I do teach in a NYC public school). You are okay with the ways things are in the S/U comm (politics wise at least), while I've always found it repugnant. There is no magical happy middle ground, and we are not going to make each other See the Light.

Re: YES. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?

[fairhearing.livejournal.com]

Seriously. You're suggesting, like so many of the worst-behaved people in that comm, that any dissatisfaction or unhappiness with it is due to inexperience with, or ignorance of, race issues or racial discussion.

No. That is not the case. Theirs is not normal or civilized discourse, period. Quite frankly, if you really had the extensive experience with race/sociology discussion that you claim to have, you'd be able to recognize that, or at least recognize the possibility.

(Also I'm not going to play "let's one-up each other with our COOL STORIES BRO." Which is frustrating because I TOTALLY COULD. But I won't.)

Re: YES. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?

[(Anonymous)]

Is this in response to my previous comment or to r0ck3tsci3ntist's?

Re: YES. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?

[fairhearing.livejournal.com]

Er, r0ck3tsci3ntist's. I was KNUCKLE-FIVING YOU IN AGREEMENT, or something.

Re: YES. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?

[(Anonymous)]

Ah I figured. :) Just wanted to make sure as it's late and my brain is not functioning very well.

Re: YES. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?

[r0ck3tsci3ntist.livejournal.com]

Sorry, not trying to one-up anybody. Not bullshitting either. The rage I see here is what makes me want to normalize by bringing up RL situations in order contextualize. But I should remember that isn't usually appropriate on teh internets.

Re: YES. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?

[fairhearing.livejournal.com]

That's okay, I'm sorry too. I'm still smarting from some of the discussions I had there and it's not cool to take it out on random fandomsecrets people. Sorry yo. :(

Re: YES. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?

[r0ck3tsci3ntist.livejournal.com]

NP! I've been finding this discussion very interesting. I think it's valuable to understand both sides of any issue, if possible.

Re: YES. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?

[r0ck3tsci3ntist.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm sure I am. All these people just come across to me as protesting WAY too much about the race issue with the comm. I can't help but see something else there. But whatever.

I mean, seriously, is that all it is? "Stop talking about race?" Are you sure it isn't "Don't tell me what to think about Uhura." Or "Don't jump on my/my friend's fic?" 'Cause that's what I'm seeing in these comments. I'm seeing Anons who have had their or their friend's fic criticized. I'm not saying I think that's cool but I don't think it should be conflated with honest discussions about race issues.

So yeah, my initial reaction is to say "M'thinks the lady(ies) doth protest too much."

But you are right, we won't convince each other of anything. It's been a good discussion though and food for thought, so thanks.

Re: YES. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?

[(Anonymous)]

One last thing--I actually agree with you about the part re: people angry due to "Don't tell me what to think about Uhura." But the thing is? The comm makes even liking (or disliking) the character and the S/U ship a race issue, so it's inevitable that it gets bundled up with everything else race-related.

THIS. I JUST SAID THE SAME THING.

[(Anonymous)]

.

Re: YES. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?

[fairhearing.livejournal.com]

::raises hand:: I've never had my fics or the fics of any of my friends criticized.

As I see it, the biggest issue is in no way overeagerness to talk about race; it's that a dissenting opinion is completely impossible, and if you DO disagree you are racist, period, accept it, ACCEPT IIIIIT Even if, um, the thing you disagree about doesn't have to do with race. It's so exhausting.

In my own time there I actually AGREED with basically all of the race stuff. I think there's absolutely racism (and misogyny) behind a lot of the bizarrely-justified distaste of the pairing, for example. That's why their rude and inexcusable behavior towards everyone who DIDN'T agree, or who made innocent mistakes, was so fucking frustrating to me. Even though our opinions were the same most of the time, they were absolutely no longer people I wanted to be associated with.

Re: YES. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?

[r0ck3tsci3ntist.livejournal.com]

I thought I remembered Cleo abjectly apologizing for all that (in the hair discussion)

it's that a dissenting opinion is completely impossible, and if you DO disagree you are racist,

That is certainly a very difficult thing to have to work around and very frustrating.

Re: YES. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?

[(Anonymous)]

let me pose the question to you, does the chulu community have a asian race!fail? or the nimoy comm a religion! fail (and there have been a lot of fics where nimoy, shatner and de meet up in heaven--nvm the first two are JEWISH)...no. just this comm. there is a heavy empisas on race which would not be so bad if it did not figure into just about every post.

Re: YES. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?

[(Anonymous)]

"We shouldn't even have to look at them sitting there not asking us to click them?"

Different Anon but with similar POV.

Check the Martha/Ten and S/U post again. The ~phantom mod~ kept suggesting that people be mindful of the rules of race engagement and froze replies to comments where people where disagreeing with the poster. As I saw it, the OP was wrong for generalizing everyone who objected to the pairing but when people tried to point that out, they were met with a little bit of anger and a lot of eye rolling.

Re: YES. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?

[vardoeger.livejournal.com]

As I saw it, the OP was wrong for generalizing everyone who objected to the pairing but when people tried to point that out, they were met with a little bit of anger and a lot of eye rolling.

Agreed. Generalisations on both sides only serve to polarise the fandom further but I was hesitant to leave a comment to that effect because I was wary of the response it would invoke. Some brave souls did and as expected, they where shut down because the discussion was getting 'off topic.'

Re: YES. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?

[(Anonymous)]

cleojones is alway good for that, she'll shut down any topic she doesn't approve of but then again she always wants to have these ~discussions~ to open up the subject of race (see UHURA THE BLACK BRUTE) but they are only for if you agree! and its funny that a lot of these women are SOOOOOO obessed with race and love them some white men. it was in another comm but nearly all of them are in interracial relationships.

Talk about a non-sequitur...

[vardoeger.livejournal.com]

IR relationships are immaterial to how they prefer this character portrayed.

And I don't like the fact that you some how imply that makes them less than black or less qualified to speak on race issues.

Re: Talk about a non-sequitur...

[(Anonymous)]

You don't think it's relevant that a bunch of black women are telling other people who to love and appreciate a black character have no love for their own race?

Re: Talk about a non-sequitur...

[fairhearing.livejournal.com]

have no love for their own race?

Wow, you're an asshole. Seriously, stop talking.

Re: Talk about a non-sequitur...

[(Anonymous)]

Name call. That's mature.

Re: Talk about a non-sequitur...

[vardoeger.livejournal.com]

I don't see a black person dating outside their race as a indicator that they have 'no love for their own race.' It means they found something in that other person so appealing they are willing to welcome social ostracisation from narrow-minded individuals such as yourself and enter into a committed relationship.