[ SECRET POST #1302 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1302 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:



Secrets Left to Post: 11 pages, 255 secrets from Secret Submission Post #186.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 3 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[ignixferroque.livejournal.com]

There was development. Yes. It wasn't that great? But you have to remember that they are kids, and there's that whole "first crush" thing, yadda yadda. It's not going to develop perfectly.

People keep mentioning the age difference, but Zuko and Katara are also two years apart if I'm not mistaken? It's not really that big a deal, especially once they get older. Age differences seem huge when you're young, but as you age it's more normal for people to date/be in relationships with people who aren't their exact age.

Also? I think people are looking at the relationship through modern culture-goggles. I personally don't think there's anything "~wrong~" with having them be together 4eva, because if that's how Bryke wants it, then who's to argue? It's their creation, their culture, their world. Just because we live in a culture today where people are more likely to casual date than date to "mate for life," as it were, doesn't mean we have to view different media placed in different worlds with the same goggles on.

I'm okay with people not liking the ship, and I'm not a fanatic about it myself, but seriously? Let's just sit back and enjoy the show, and be glad we're not only getting something extra but that Aang and Katara could be happy together. There's enough bad shit and dark tragedy in the wide world of fandom to get your fix on breakups and casual dating; being so harsh on this really isn't necessary.

[sneaky-elephant.livejournal.com]

Yes. Another comment that is A+

Especially that bit about 'modern-culture goggles'; it's perfectly acceptable to get married at 16 in the Avatar world, yet nowadays people would give a side-eye if that was your idea of perfectly normal. Not to say it's bad, just our cultural norms are really rather different to that of the Avatar world.

[ignixferroque.livejournal.com]

Yeaaah, it's just... as a History major I've been used to culture shock for a while? Other cultures fascinate me and I like getting into other people's shoes. It's not that I'm sitting here bashing other people's opinions--they can think what they want. But I think it needs to be said that sometimes it's okay to view things in a different light.

In layman's terms, casual dating as we know it today wasn't so prevalent for a long, long time. We ('we' being people in second or first world countries) typically have the luxury of longer lifespans and the eight-hour workday. We're not going to die of plague at the age of five, and if you look at a lot of western cultures, you might find that people are much more used to/willing to date casually, because that's just something we can afford to do, and that's just how many of our cultures developed.

The same case doesn't have to apply to the other media we look at; what's 'realistic' in modern American culture isn't necessarily 'realistic' in a world very obviously based on less modern eastern/oriental ideals and customs and mindsets.

That's not a bad thing.

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

YES, the culture thing is what a lot of people seem to miss. The world of Avatar isn't our modern world where you're expected to date casually and within your own age circle or else you're looked upon as a weirdo.

[lililedger.livejournal.com]

14 and 16, while still very different, are still closer developmentally than 14 and 12.

*Has five younger brothers*

[sneaky-elephant.livejournal.com]

True, but most 12 year olds aren't forced to grow up and mature as quickly as Aang. Kid had alot of shiz to deal with and although still a kid at heart is not your typical twelve year old.

[yukinoomoni.livejournal.com]

THIS.

[lililedger.livejournal.com]

Really? Because the impression that I got was that he was EXACTLY your typical twelve year old. Even in season 3. Granted, he DID finally buckle down and beat Ozai, but other than that, he was still a child. I see nothing wrong with Kataang when they're older, but here? It was just kinda squicky.

[sneaky-elephant.livejournal.com]

Does Aang act like a typical 12 year old sometimes, yes! Does he have wisdom and certain aspects of maturity beyond his age, double yes. He had the guilt of abandoning his people, the fear of facing Ozai by himself and the moral apprehension of not wanting to abandon his beliefs and kill someone. He dealt with all these things and he's still just 12.

Also, Aang and Katara aren't going to be having sex as soon as the series ends, so honestly I don't know what you find squicky about it.

[ignixferroque.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm not arguing that. But after their kiss, we don't get to see how their relationship unfolds afterward. I'd rather wait until the new series comes out to see if they give any indication on what their relationship was like, and if there's some Kataang fluff, I'll be less hesitant to pass more judgment at that point.

[yukinoomoni.livejournal.com]

THANK YOU.

FLAMEO, HOTMAN, FLAMEO.

[ignixferroque.livejournal.com]

<3

I really need more atla icons. 8|

[yukinoomoni.livejournal.com]

YES YOU DO.

I have a million, all thanks to sarajayechan, but I plan on keeping them, because honestly? ATLA IS THAT AWESOME.

[ignixferroque.livejournal.com]

OKAY. /GOES TO GET SOME

YES IT IS. My friend and I made this (http://death-by-clarinet.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d1j31td) for the finale. *___* I swear it was the best cake I've ever had.

[(Anonymous)]

I think my problem with the age difference is that, at that time of life, that age difference is a big deal. When you're older, a few years doesn't make that much of a difference, but when you're going through puberty, a few years can make all the difference.

Also, the fact that girls generally go through puberty before guys makes me feel a little weirder about the ship, and causes me to be more okay with the "kind of younger girl -> older guy" ship of Zutara. Even if Katara and Aang were the same age, she would probably be more mature than him at that point, but the fact that he's two years younger just makes him that much less developed (generally speaking, of course).

PLUS the fact that Katara is already shown to be mature for her age (as Sokka goes on about she was the one who was always taking care of him, and she's the Team Mom and whatnot), that just again makes me feel weird about the ship.

ALSO, the fact that Katara marries the first guy she meets around her own age who isn't her brother makes me feel weird about it as well.

As for the development, I think the issues from it stem from a writing perspective, not from a relationship perspective. I don't think that, "well some first relationships are developed weirdly," is an excuse, because I don't think that was why they did that, I think it was just poorly handled development. Which is lame, because I thought Kataang was kinda cute until season 3, when there was a weird fumble, and Aang was immature while Katara was being very mature, which only served to underscore the imbalance in the relationship (to me).

because if that's how Bryke wants it, then who's to argue?

There's nothing wrong with someone having issues with the way that something is written. That is what criticism is all about. Have you never had an issue with the way a show or movie or book or whatever developed? I mean, I think at some point you just need to accept canon and go, "Oh well, guess that's how it's going to be," but I still don't think you should just never have problems with it, or talk about it, or even argue about it. Again, that's what criticism is about.

ANYWAYS! This got to be a little long, but, you know, all this stuff is subjective, yadda yadda, and it was just my particular problems with the ship. I don't hate it with a fiery passion, I just think it's problematic and not handled very well. Plus I just wasn't very interested in them as a couple, but that's just a preference thing. (They were never my favorite characters, I was pretty much in it for Sokka, Toph and Zuko, whoo!)

[yukinoomoni.livejournal.com]

Lol I guess I'm stupid then because I usually am attracted to younger guys, and always have been.

I ALWAYS DO IT WRONG.

[ignixferroque.livejournal.com]

oh bb don't be a creeper :(

[yukinoomoni.livejournal.com]

By "younger" meaning, by - at the most - three years, which is AN ABOMINATION ACCORDING TO ATLA FANDOM.

[ignixferroque.livejournal.com]

I'd... take your thing point by point but it'd just be a tl;dr to say I totally know where you're coming from, and those points I can definitely understand.

Though, to be fair, like I said, not all young relationships are going to be perfect and w/e. Think of it this way: Since Aang is --or was--twelve, you can conceivably think that the initial development of their relationship would be a little lopsided at first. With Katara being more mature and Aang being frustrated with all that was going on plus his ... developing going on, I honestly wasn't that surprised? And from a writing perspective, I think it seemed pretty genuine and expected.

There's nothing wrong with someone having issues with the way that something is written. That is what criticism is all about. Have you never had an issue with the way a show or movie or book or whatever developed? I mean, I think at some point you just need to accept canon and go, "Oh well, guess that's how it's going to be," but I still don't think you should just never have problems with it, or talk about it, or even argue about it. Again, that's what criticism is about.

I guess I worded myself poorly, orz sorry about that, but I guess what I'm driving at is that, while it's totally cool to critique a piece of media--it's even what I love about fandom if it doesn't get out of hand!--the flipping out about canon v. not canon and people being catty and bitchy just bugs the hell out of me. It's alright if you don't like how something turned out; it's okay if you're pissed off, even, but don't take it out on your fellow fandom members, and that is what bugs me. People can express themselves if they choose to, but there's a time and a place and then there's just acting like a douchebag.

I never really got into the shipping wars in ATLA. I've had my own ships from Kataang to Zutara to pondering what would it be like if the entire female cast were lesbians. Part of me is sad Zutara didn't develop into a relationship? But I've been doing fandom stuff for a while and that's just how things go.

[(Anonymous)]

Ah, I get what you're saying, and yeah, I totally agree about the canon vs. non-canon thing. I don't even get why it matters! This is why fanfiction exists! Hell, almost every ship I have in every fandom that I'm in is non-canon. What good does it do me to like, rue the creators/canon/shippers/whatever just because what I liked isn't what the creators wanted to write? Kataang happening doesn't ruin AtlA for me, and if it did...well, that would just be silly, considering it's just one aspect of the show.

And yeah, I never got involved in the shipwars at all, thank god. I shipped, but that was pretty much the extent of my involvement.

[ignixferroque.livejournal.com]

Kataang happening doesn't ruin AtlA for me, and if it did...well, that would just be silly, considering it's just one aspect of the show.

THANK YOU ANON AND GOOD NIGHT.

[(Anonymous)]

Think of it this way: Since Aang is --or was--twelve, you can conceivably think that the initial development of their relationship would be a little lopsided at first

Yeah, I just wish that it had been like, suggested, but not definitely resolved that Katara and Aang were going to get together, you know? Like, I'd be okay with it being like a, "maybe in a few years and we'll see what happens when you're done with puberty," kinda thing, rather than a "they kiss, AND THEN THEY GET MARRIED AND NEVER DATE ANYONE ELSE!"

Cause you know, also, Katara is the only girl that Aang's seen outside of some nuns once at another Airbender temple. I don't think it's really fair to him either.

You know, actually, thinking about Aang and Katara not starting a relationship for a few more years, growing up, going through puberty, maybe seeing a few other people and then being like, "No, you know what, it was you all along!" would actually make me feel a lot better about Kataang as a whole.

[(Anonymous)]

But katara is not exactly mature herself. Romantically not terribly mature. And she is very temperamental, very my way or the highway, very stubborn, and she could certainly hit below the belt when she wanted to verbally. There were several instances were Aang was actually very mature, even more so than his older counterparts.

The age thing doesn't mean jack to me. It's how they treat each other. And if you think the two year age thing is weird, I think the "falling for a guy who helped his sister kill her best friend" thing is weird. Also zuko was pretty romantically inept at his age (considering being older supposedly makes him more romantically wise and mature) Even aang was more confident in himself and interested in girls.

[ignixferroque.livejournal.com]

I think the "falling for a guy who helped his sister kill her best friend" thing is weird.

Whoa whoa, I might be just dense from being sick, but what... situation is this?

[(Anonymous)]

Eh, for the most part Aang was the immature one, though. Sure, Katara had a few moments, but for some of them Aang was right along there with her. The show made a very big point about how Katara was the mom, she was the one that was cautious about getting into a relationship (which I think says a lot for her maturity, especially at that age), she was the mature one.

And I think, while Aang was "more confident in himself" re: girls, this ended in some questionable treatment of Katara. Like, the kiss in EIP reeeally grates on me for that reason. He kisses her in Day of the Black Son -> she looks shaken and worried, then apparently they don't talk about it (which just sounds like it would be super awkward in real life), then he decides to kiss her again, she tells him that it's not such a good idea, and he has a mini-episode. I just thought that went a long way to show the discrepancy between them, maturity-wise.

You know, Aang might have done a lot of amazing things in his life, but relationships are an entirely different beast from like, saving the world.

Also, I don't really see where Zuko being bad at relationships comes into play. He does pretty well on that date he goes on in Ba Sing Se (come on, that firebending trick was pretty smooth), and then in The Beach he gets all huffy with Mai, but I think everyone was just being really wonky in that episode.

Also, for the record, I'm pretty sure by the end of the series Katara was cool with Zuko, so the whole, "you know, you were kinda a dick, back in the day," thing was a moot point. Plus he did join the Avatar, teach him to firebend, and also save Katara from being lightninged out the wazoo. So, you know, there's that.