fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1353 ]

[ SECRET POST #1353 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1353 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[starlight express]

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[Knightmare]

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[Instant Classic]

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[Jimmy Carr]

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[TGWTG]

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[SPN]

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[Elizabeth Edwards]

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[RENT]

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[1TYM]

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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS BELOW ----- ]

145. [SPOILERS for Batman: Arkham City]

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146. [SPOILERS for Mass Effect 2]

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147. [SPOILERS for as the world turns]

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148. [SPOILERS for Kuroshitsuji II]

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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS BELOW ----- ]

149. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]

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150. [TRIGGER WARNING for suicide]

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151. [TRIGGER WARNING for chan/lolicon]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #193.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - hitshipspiration ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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(disclaimer: I'm the young(ish) straight white male anon from a couple of posts up.)

This post is a lovely, wonderful dream. Out in the real world, though...

It's not about saying, hey, white people have these things that nobody else does, so let's take those things away.

The problem is, that's more often how it manifests. "You've never been a victim of prejudice? Well, let's fucking make you a victim of prejudice and see how you like it! THEN come back and talk to me about privilege!!one". Accurate or not, that's the key sentiment behind a lot of those sorts of comments - that you have no right talking about prejudice if you've never been a victim of it; and worse still, if you've never been a victim of it then you're obviously a privileged part of a system that endorses it. It's garbage. It's complete crap. But that's how it feels sometimes. It's an emotional response, and emotional responses simply don't result in rational discussions.

Or maybe that's my problem from start to finish - trying to rationalise something that's based entirely on emotional responses...

No, it's not how it usually manifests. That that is the way you (and the OP) seem to read says more about your attitudes than that of the activists.

- A white fan who usually feels plenty welcome because she actually LISTENS to other people

I've actively protested the "privileged" system (I think privileged is an overused term with a lot of unneeded weight attached to it, but I'll use it for lack of a better term). But, as soon as they learn I'm white, it's like "YOU'RE WHITE YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING GTFO". The OP wasn't very specific, I can't really tell what she means, but that's been my experience at some points.

Ever think that it's maybe the way you're bringing up the fact that you're white and/or male? A lot of women and PoC have had the experience of being mansplained or whitesplained to-- where a white person or a man decides to "explain" things as though their experience is more important than that of the oppressed people in the conversation. If you bring up the fact that you're white and man in a way that suggests that makes your experiences more valid (or that seems like you're suggesting such) it could cause a problem such as you describe.

I always bring up the "I'm white" thing because I see it as a disclaimer that "a lot of what I say is probably bullshit"
but I'd rather not have half a dozen or 30 different people tell me so themselves...

It's more of a problem online I think, because, generally people tend to be more vocal about what makes them uncomfortable online.

I can see how some see it as whitesplaining, and lord knows I've hated the mansplaining, christiansplaining, parentsplaining that I've recieved, but I've generally always responded to those with comments that "That's kind of offensive to me," or spell it out as "It sounds like you're saying that your opinion is more valid than mine, even though I've lived through...etc" rather than jumping straight to "This speaks of your privilege. This comment is invalid" (I think this is just ctrl+v'd for trolling purposes) or outright accusing "I don't need you to whitesplain to me! Lord knows there's enough venues for that!" But then civil discussion online is sort of antithetical.

If you're privileged and you don't do anything to start dismantling the system you live in that gives you privilege, aren't you kind of endorsing it through inaction?

I kind of hate this argument. I don't agree with the genocide in Darfur, or the military junta in Burma, or the hideously hateful GOP candidate in Delaware, but I'm broke and dependent and from New York and there isn't anything I can do about it.

Nothing, really? Does it take too much money to join an activist or advocacy group and spread the word about what's going on?

That's not even what I'm really talking about, though. It's little things, like speaking up when someone says something you know is offensive, or making a conscious choice not to put toward a company that you know has bad practises (when you can afford it), stuff like that.

Try to just focus locally. Only place you'll ever really see change.

I kinda understand where you're coming from. I'm white and cis, but I've had some experiences being the target of homophobia from people in my immediate family and I know what it's like to be so hurt and enraged that these people have no idea why what they're doing is having an effect on you and you can't suck it up and get over it. In my mind sometimes I do lump together straight people that aren't openly allies, and I feel really bad about it and know that I shouldn't be thinking this way but sometimes I still do.

Anger like that comes from being on the receiving end of prejudice, and there's often nothing that somebody can do to convince another person that they aren't the bad guy. And yeah, that does make it really hard to be an ally, if you've got someone yelling at you that you're part of the problem because you belong to X privileged group. But that person doesn't feel that way because they're just an asshole, they feel that way because they've been exposed to so much discrimination that expecting more discrimination has become a learned response.

Still, I believe that the best way to proceed is to do one's best to stop discrimination in whatever sphere of influence you have, and maybe that's silly dreamer talk but I'm not really a realist anyway. It's also not the OP's duty to flagellate herself for having privilege, and that's mostly what my post was about anyway.

I think that deciding someone's a jerk can be a very convenient excuse not to listen to what they have to say.

Also icon love like whoa.

But that person doesn't feel that way because they're just an asshole, they feel that way because they've been exposed to so much discrimination that expecting more discrimination has become a learned response.

But that in itself is perpetuating the problem; how is (for example) the expectation that white guys are going to discriminate any less discriminatory than a white guy who discriminates? (That sentence was awful - sorry..) The presumption of discrimination is in itself a discriminatory act. And that's something I think both sides need to figure out. (I know I've been on both sides of that fence. I'm not proud of it, but that's the reality.)

The presumption of discrimination from certain people because of their gender, sexual orientation, or skin colour may be a prejudiced view, but it's nowhere near as hurtful and overall damaging as actually being discriminated against in all aspects of society.

Both are bad things to do and can hurt people and damage the ability for the privileged group and the marginalized group to be able to work together and move forward and help get rid of the 'privileged' and 'marginalized' statuses. That much is true.

That doesn't make it the same thing.

you should join ontd_feminism, there are tons of us with a similar mindset over there and someone with your understanding of this material will be really welcome in the comm.

/shameless plug

lol ontd_feminism

Depends. Are you cool feminists that actually understand how gender works, or are you the icky transphobic kind?

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2010-09-18 00:30 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2010-09-18 02:45 (UTC) - Expand

bawwwwwwww. want me to call you a wahhhhhhhhhhhhhmbulance?

that's not how it is at all, there are a select few number of people who make it like that but usually you're just interpreting somebody trying to make you address your privilege as someone trying to make you a victim. because it doesn't feel nice.

unfortunately, this is how it is like every day for us marginalized people. our lives are a collage of not-nice feelings. and if at one point in your fandom time a mean marginalized person who doesn't recognize your supreme and awesome power makes you feel, just for a split second, how we feel ALL THE FUCKING TIME, you have no right to complain. because you can leave. you can exit internet explorer (or chrome, or firefox, or whatever) and never have to feel like that again.

we can't. there is no exit button for our oppression. that's garbage. us not wanting you to tell us about the prejudices we feel is justified, because you can't and won't ever understand. and if you have privilege, you fucking benefit from it. you fucking benefit from our oppression. you're lucky we're nice to you. we shouldn't have to be. but if we're mean, you can still play us off as uppity oppressed people. if you're mean to us, it's our own fault. we should've known our place.

that's why this is emotional. this is my fucking life. i don't owe you rationality about the mistreatment i've suffered at the hands of the privileged - mistreatment you may very well be benefitting from as we speak. and you can play how we feel off as ~emotional responses~ because you will never have to feel like this.

you've said you're young. i'm sure you know what ageism feels like. and it's not nice. doesn't it piss you off when a middle aged person tries to explain what it's like to be young and how you just ~don't understand right now because you're young? how the crap you have to go through is for your own good? that sucks. i've been there. i'm still there. it's frustrating and it makes me angry and ~emotional~. but i have the comfort that one day i'll be middle aged and other middle aged people with my best interests in mind will rule the world. you do too, i'm sure. i can't feel like that about the other traits i have that marginalize me. they don't go away. i'm stuck as marginalized forever.

That's not what ageism is, anyway. Ageism is mistreatment of the old, not the young.

no...

the group with power in society is middle aged. the young literally have NO POWER, and the elderly have very little. thus, ageism is the systematic oppression of the young and of the elderly.

when i say young, i mean like under 21 or even 18 young. sorry if that was misunderstood.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2010-09-17 23:57 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

bloodrivendream.livejournal.com - 2010-09-18 01:39 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

beandelphiki.livejournal.com - 2010-09-18 02:30 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2010-09-18 02:52 (UTC) - Expand

I don't know; this whole thing just makes me very sad for you. I'm sorry you have to put up with it all. I certainly wouldn't want to complain about MY problems after reading this.

I have invisible disabilities and have been discriminated against by POC in positions of authority because they only see "white girl" and completely invalidate any actual issues because and I've heard one say this "white people don't have those problems, they're just spoiled by their over-protective middle class parents"

But I can't say this logged in (and only 'jokingly refer to it' irl) because people will be like OMG ReverseRacism isn't real!

To those people

It's not reverse racism. It's just plain racism, but it's OK because it's against white people. White people are big kids they can handle it. They deserve it.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2010-09-18 04:02 (UTC) - Expand

Isn't that ablism?

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