fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1535 ]

[ SECRET POST #1535 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1535 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 058 secrets from Secret Submission Post #219.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Then I don't know why the OP would point out that the show has two male main characters so it cannot pass the test.

I'm not saying the show is not good or it doesn't have good female characters. I don't watch it. But the tone of the secret just bugs me.

I think the Bechdel test thing is a load of bollocks anyway, personally. Why does a work have to have 'strong' female characters in order to be valid?

IDK. It's a fun show. I like it because it's fun to see all the ways in which Gatiss and Moffat took what was starting to become a bit of a Victorian relic and found ways to make it contemporary, but still parallel the original canon.

Uhm, do you even know what the Bechdel Test is? (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/21/34585797_d7fd14edfb.jpg) (Hint: it has nothing to do with "strong female characters")

Yep. And I still think it's bollocks.

But I don't count, because I'm part of the cockfest.

Oh, I see. You're one of those people that thinks no one should critique media for lack of representation, aren't you? That's all the Test does, after all-- it points out that a significant amount of media lacks representation, even when there is no plot reason to be that way.

Oh, right, sorry. I know absolutely no men who care about women's representation in medi-- Oh wait. No. You're just an asshole.

And no one's forcing you to watch it. There are plenty of other things on the telly that aren't cockfests.

Did I say anyone was forcing me to watch it? As mentioned earlier, I enjoy the Canon. I found the BBC show problematic in certain ways, but enjoyable as well. Strangely, I can acknowledge something as problematic and still enjoy it.

I'm just taking issue with the fact the people seem to be reading something into the Bechdel Test that doesn't actually exist.

So then why on Earth are you flipping your shit over it if it doesn't bother you to begin with?

Good grief.

Do you just selectively read my posts or something?

I'm just taking issue with the fact the people seem to be reading something into the Bechdel Test that doesn't actually exist.

That help? Or do I need to get the sparklefont?

Edited 2011-03-17 22:59 (UTC)

You're a very angry person. Has anyone ever told you that?

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ryuutchi.livejournal.com - 2011-03-17 23:05 (UTC) - Expand

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oxfordtweed - 2011-03-17 23:07 (UTC) - Expand

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ryuutchi.livejournal.com - 2011-03-17 23:11 (UTC) - Expand

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oxfordtweed - 2011-03-17 23:09 (UTC) - Expand

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ryuutchi.livejournal.com - 2011-03-17 23:13 (UTC) - Expand

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oxfordtweed - 2011-03-17 23:18 (UTC) - Expand

Yeah, we know what the bechdel test is. But this is a show that is firmly fixed in the POV of two male characters. It follows them from place to place and concentrates on the things that effect them.

All the other characters, male and female, interact with the main characters and only the main characters. Even the male secondary characters don't interact with anyone else. Even the villains and the victims of the don't talk to people other than the male leads.

That's fine. I'm just taking issue with the characterization of the Bechdel test as anything other than a quick and dirty yardstick that is about two women talking to each other about something other than a man. It says nothing about "strong women", as the person above seemed to think.

That the series itself doesn't pass it does not actually bother me a whole hell of a lot. It's only a couple episodes, it has a lot of other issues that I'd rather complain about.

Now I really want to know what lunch hour is like for Mike and Molly. Imagine the conversations they must have.

Oh, man.... Mike and Molly as friends who (playfully) make fun of Sherlock behind his back... DO WANT!

QUICK! To the meme before it freezes!

but the point is that the Bechdel Test is meaningless in relation to one show. It's only meaningful because taken as a series of data points (aka comparisons of numerous shows/books/movies whatever) it can be a useful tool for illuminating the lack of main female characters overall.

That doesn't mean one show that fails is sexist, wrong, or that people who like it are sexist.

Sometimes not passing the Bechdel test doesn't mean you're not 'strong' - it means you're freakin' busy.

I think the Bechdel test thing is a load of bollocks anyway, personally. Why does a work have to have 'strong' female characters in order to be valid?

You can't blame people from complaining at the lack of well developed female characters.

Not saying you can't find it fun, but dismissing the valid complaints of fans who would like to see well developed female characters in a show they like is not exactly fair, is it?

Well yeah, they can (and did!), it just makes them obnoxious.

*edit*

ack, I'm sorry, I think I misunderstood your comment >___>

Edited 2011-03-18 02:06 (UTC)

Only, the Bechdel test doesn't test for developed female characters. If there are two women who talk about buying shoes or changing nappies, it would still pass the test, and I do not find that particularly empowering...

The tone of the secret implies the OP doesn't really care about strong of well developed female characters.

And what exactly is wrong with buying shoes and changing nappies? If the women in question like to do that, I don't see anything wrong with it.

In that case there's nothing wrong with talking about men either, because a lot of women like talking about men.

There's nothing wrong about talking about nappies or shoes ( wait, there are people who LIKE talking about nappies? ), but is does reinforce certain clichés (women want to buy stuff, women are interested in babies). So excuse me if I do not find those particular conversations thrilling to see, either. Just because they're talking about something other then men, doesn't make them interesting, or a strong character.
So I'm basically stating that the test doesn't actually prove much. Except that there were two women in it, who talked, but not about men. Which really doesn't say much at all.

I see the secret differently, because of all the fandoms to pick this battle over, I really don't think Sherlock should be the one.It really IS about Holmes and Watson, who, you know, are men. I do not see the added value of having two female side-characters interacting extensively...in this particular show.

There's nothing wrong with it... unless you have a high number of shows and movies were men is the only thing female characters talk about.

The test is not about movies being feminist or even good - heck, SatC passes it -, it's about how so many movies follow the same pattern. The OP implied that she didn't care about female characters getting development either. Which is fine. But complaining about people who do care? Eh, yeah...

I don't watch the show but I read the books. And I always wanted more female characters. And I'm sure others do. Just because the main charactes are male, doesn't mean you can't have interesting SECONDARY female characters.

"Why does a work have to have 'strong' female characters in order to be valid?"
Not "valid", just "enjoyable", which is subjective. Some people like fiction with strong female characters. Some people only like stories if they have comedy in them, or action, or romance, or drama. It's the same thing- a bit more socially/politically rooted, but still the same concept. Nothing wrong with people wanting what they want in a story. Also, those people tend to enjoy the things they criticize for lack of strong female characters otherwise; there's always something that could be better about any good thing and that's kind of the point of fandom: to discuss a series/movie/show/whatever, good parts and bad. What I'm trying to say in a rambling fashion that lack of strong female characters rarely ruins the validity of a work for the people who use the Bechdel test.

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