fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1556 ]

[ SECRET POST #1556 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1556 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 040 secrets from Secret Submission Post #222.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - ships it ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

-I didn't think there was going to be such epic backlash here. Warren is legitimately one of my favorite characters. Mostly it's because I find his character interesting [and liking a character =/= sharing a character's views, by the by], but partially because I do sympathize with him. To a degree. I can recognize how he is a very human character, despite doing inhuman things. He was a deeply shallow person, to near sociopathy, but still did desire love. In any way he could get it, which is a feeling a lot of people can relate to. Sure, he had the means and the moral depravity to do what he did [build a girlfriend/sex-bot, hypnotize Katrina into this master/slave parody of their former relationship], but he was still reaching out to something unattainable, even if he lacked the respect and temperament to really function in a relationship. Warren did not intend to kill Katrina- he speaks about her with love and sincerity to Buffy the first time they meet, and it's very clear that he is still enamored of her in "Dead Things". But now it's really clear that he can separate love from ownership. He was as panicked as the other two when she attempted escape, and he definitely hit her in a murderous rage, but- seriously. Yes, he's a murderer, yes, he's a rapist. But he was also a social outcast, bullied and rejected and truly twisted in the end. I really think Season 6 shows a slow progression of corruption with Warren. It was in him to be cruel, but as soon as he asserted his dominance over the Trio [they started out arguing for leadership], and finally he was in charge of something and it was about time, etc. I've known kids like him, who maybe didn't turn out to be rapists, but became cynical, sarcastic know-it-alls, scrabbling for higher ground in every confrontation. He's pathetic, and ignorant. But much like a nice kid like Jonathan at least had a hand in some bad things, Warren did not have someone like Buffy to at least have someone send him in the right direction.

Jane Espenson said in an interview [and forgive me if this was already mentioned], that Warren's explanation of why he made and abandoned April is supposed to be a reflection of Buffy's relationship with Riley, and in that scene she was relating to him. Like, she sought out Riley as a replacement for love, but while outwardly perfect she couldn't really love him. Buffy's not some saint in the end, but I think that says -something-, about what they were trying to say about Warren. Even that Warren sought a girl with imperfections, like being admittedly a little bitchy and eccentric, I find that an indication of what kind of character he was supposed to be.

When Warren first starts losing his mind over things, like lashing out at Willow moments before his death, it seems that he wasn't always such a twitchy lunatic. Like this was a set-in. Bullying and emotional neglect or what-have-you are not grounds for the crimes he committed. But they can be. He was just a bad bad kid.

And I'm not gonna get into Season 8. Except to point out that despite an attempted Willow-lobotomy, his last big hoo-rah before dissolving was to protect Andrew.

Same Anon-

*it's really clear that he can't separate love from ownership

Good golly, S8... I think they butchered his character, to be honest, turning him into less of a villain and more of comedic relief took away everything that made him scary. But I did sort of love that he was worried about Andrew "bleeding really bad." Even if Andrew apparently wasn't bleeding too bad for him to pop back to his feet a few issues later. What is continuity?

Anyway, besides the point. You make a lot of really, really good points here. Just wanted to say I agree so much.

Yeah, s'why I've mostly left out the comic continuation. In general I dislike it, but Warren's inclusion was extremely pointless, under-utilized and silly. Okay, Amy can magically sustain him, but can't manage a replacement skin? Warren's villainous nature was all the more disturbing because he was just a regular guy, a guy you could pass on the street, who was very maladjusted and malicious without magic powers. Wise-cracking flesh sack in a blazer? Not so much.

I think in the end, he still considered the Trio his friends, as long as they were subservient. His own screwed up concept of a relationship. He probably would have dragged Andrew along for the flaying, had he not crashed into that roof on take-off.

...jesus. You also have given me more to think about.

I can't speak for other fans, but I've honestly never given him this much thought before. My first reaction to him, through April, was "ewwww" and just went downhill from there. So, yeah, I think I'm going to pull out my DVDs and rewatch his episodes. I don't see myself liking him, really, which is fine because that's not really the point of his character, but I think I'll be able to react to him with more than a heavy sense of disgust now.

So, thanks to you as well, anon.

I'm a sucker for minor characters, so I couldn't help but put some thought into him. And this is coming from a major Tara fan. I watched his death scene with bated breath when it aired, and even as a shallow teenager, the skin-removal had me sit back and go 'Wow, that wasn't justified'. He was a bastard, but it was all situational, little boy mistakes, spurred on by a fragile ego and a temper. Season 6 is ALL about humanity. Buffy regaining her humanity after death, Spike struggling with the humanity of love. Xander and Anya's tragically human mistakes in their relationship. Willow losing her humanity to magic. And the Trio represent how carelessly evil the products of society can be. They lived in a fantasy world, and being super-villains [in an entirely fictional, above-the-law comic book sense], gave them license to ignore the consequences. Andrew spurred Warren on to kill Buffy because he was just seeing the fight as an end-game confrontation, not actual deadly combat. And he later kills Jonathan for acceptance and friendship from someone he KNEW wasn't his dead friend. Its crazy that a couple of tears from Andrew can exonerate him in many fan's eyes, but just how scared and foolish Warren is half the time isn't even registered.

SORRY. I keep going off about him. In any case, I don't expect anyone to add him to their favorite character list, but... I don't know, Joss Whedon isn't a perfect creator, but he is usually pretty specific with his characterization, and people seem to ignore some of what he does. No one on Buffy ever asks 'WHY', especially in later seasons. They treated Andrew like dirt, and never once tried to understand why he would do what he did until 'Storyteller', and because Buffy and co. write off certain villains as 'BAD', the audience often doesn't look deeper.

I think everyone on Buffy is worth another look, especially as we grow older.

Feel free to keep going on about him, actually. Like I said, it's making me think and you're brining up valid points. I've never thought of Warren as scared before, but he really was. I just, dunno, couldn't get past the "built a girlfriend" and how icky that was, even with Tara's comment about how lonely he must have been. Hah, shallow teenager sums it up there, I guess.

The skin removal was fascinating for me, and I had the exact same thought (wasn't justified) but I never thought about it in terms of what was justifiable punishment for what Warren did, but what Willow wasn't justified to do, if that makes any sense at all.

Honestly, though, I guess I stopped seriously analyzing the characters around the time the whole Faith thing was blowing up. That's when I realized that I didn't really like the main characters, in large part because of what you pointed out--their tendency to never ask WHY and just write a certain villain off as BAD.

But you know, you're right, and I'm pulling out all my DVDs now. Joss has created some amazing characters, and I think it's time I take a look at them again.

The skin removal was fascinating for me, and I had the exact same thought (wasn't justified) but I never thought about it in terms of what was justifiable punishment for what Warren did, but what Willow wasn't justified to do, if that makes any sense at all.

This.

My final say, and then I think I need to block this site so I don't revisit for further largely useless commentary: I think, when Warren is first introduced, he's played and written as someone almost worth knowing. He's obviously smart, and has the best social skills of the three, and seems to have had a genuinely good report with the other two. He's a jerk, and his fast-talking has ulterior motive written all over it, but he's kind of magnetic. It's understandable why Jonathan and Andrew might gradually fall into step behind him, given how they themselves function. He's like a ... mirror world Xander, who has replaced good nature with entitled genius. As the season progresses, he becomes less friendly, a little more intense. It's clear that the worth of a human life is judged on a case by case basis, and his whole demeanor changes as it becomes less about trained gorillas and more about power and survival.

He was repeatedly kicked when he was down, and then when he got a taste of normal life [college, a beautiful girlfriend], his lonely mistake April came back to haunt him, bringing the Slayer in tow. And Katrina left him. And in the end, he couldn't even clean up his own mess, Buffy did it, all the time looking down on him for his creation. Even Spike, repeatedly breaking into his house to demand favors of him, pushes him down. He's just so pathetic. Someone above commented on how they felt Adam Busch's opinion of the character was really reaching, but I can't say I disagree with him. Even sociopaths have degrees of emotional disconnect, they're not all axe murderers. Warren knew right from wrong, but the urge to please anybody but himself just disintegrated. He is definitely worse off by the Season's close, and I think the transformation is really obvious.

And in the end, he couldn't even clean up his own mess, Buffy did it, all the time looking down on him for his creation. Even Spike, repeatedly breaking into his house to demand favors of him, pushes him down.

I think that is what ultimately pushed Warren over the edge, to be honest, the fact that he never had control over how his life progressed (in his past when he was a social outcast, and then later with Buffy and the Scoobies constantly stepping in). At the very least, his desire to gain control, to be in charge of his own destiny for once, was a huge contributing factor to his downward spiral.

I mean, Warren is pretty much to blame for what happened between him and Katrina. I think he believes he could have handled the Aprilbot fiasco on his own, keeping his relationship with Katrina intact all the while putting April in decommission, but since Buffy interfered and took the situation out of his (perceived) control, he could easily put the blame on Buffy and make himself believe that it was Buffy who caused him to lose his girlfriend and eventually kill her. This set the stage for resentment to sink in, and ultimately, the desire for revenge. If Buffy could just waltz into his life and ruin his affairs, he could do the same to Buffy. And more than that, he would attempt to even the playing field by drawing up schemes that would take away her power, or in other words, her strength and her control (thus giving himself power and control, by proxy).

I think it's pretty clear through his actions that Warren has a problem dealing with strong women. He hates them, even, for possessing strength in the first place, when he himself has so little, despite his wits and intellect. He probably could have been a pretty capable inventor, or engineer, or something in society -- he probably could have had a successful career, even with his malicious streak (because really, there are tons of malicious people in the working world), but he let his emotions and inferiority complex fester to a point where they ultimately led him down a path of negative consequence and no good behavior. And death. That's a big one.

It's all rather tragic, actually.

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[ SECRET POST #1556 ]

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