fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1583 ]

[ SECRET POST #1583 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1583 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 83 secrets from Secret Submission Post #226.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - hit/ship/spiration ], [ 0 - omgiknowthem ], [ 0 - take it to comments ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

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Well I was just referring to people being annoyed that she's in the spotlight all the time this season, not the fact that people just don't like her character. I was just saying that she's in the spotlight cuz she has to be.

Then again, I'm pretty sure Moffat wouldn't know subtlety if it hit him over the head with a sledgehammer, so I'm not shocked he doesn't recognize the importance of the concept.

LOL He's become a teller, not a show-er since he took over. It's a big part of my issues with him.

Except that she doesn't have to be; Moffat decided to make her be. And again, the Master didn't have the spotlight the entire season when he was on -- at least, not directly; he was occasionally referenced, but only the final three episodes actually featured him, and as

fenm pointed out, the Master is an established character, and so focusing on him isn't as irksome.

River, on the other hand, will be around, being obnoxious and in the viewer's faces, all season. That's a hell of a lot more spotlight than the Master ever got in series 3.

And yeah, agreed on Moffat. Oh my god I hate his storytelling, though. I can't even describe how much. I don't think the man has an original thought in his head, honestly-- everything he does is a rehash of something else! :\

Well he decided to make her that when he decided to make her such a big part of the Doctor's life. The Master wasn't possibly the Doctor's wife/baby-momma/girlfriend/someone obviously super important in his future. Just by being that, River became something bigger than the Master was in a certain way.

It's funny because he wrote my fave eps (The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances) but I have SO many issues with him now that he's taken over.

I see you are new to all the people who assume the Master was Susan's other grandfather.

Really? I've never heard that lol.

The Master was super-important in the Doctor's future by virtue of having been important in his past. River... River came out of nowhere, isn't (to our knowledge) an established character, and we're expected to care about an entire series-long story arc about her, like her, and tolerate her being in our faces for a whole series because... why? Because Moffat said so? No, thanks. I don't buy it. Moffat saying "she's really important guys YOU'LL SEE" doesn't justify making it all about her.

I loved TEC/TDD so hard. Everything else he's written for the series has been such samey crap though. Ugh. And especially now that he's showrunner. I seriously don't know if I'll keep watching the show anymore... I managed through series 5 mostly running just on the fact that I really like Eleven, but a whole series of River Song and all of Moffat's writing flaws? Might have to count me out. :\

River came out of nowhere, isn't (to our knowledge) an established character, and we're expected to care about an entire series-long story arc about her, like her, and tolerate her being in our faces for a whole series because... why? Because Moffat said so?

Um...pretty much yea. It's his show lol. You have to watch what he puts on it if you're gonna watch. Or you can not watch. (I don't even mean that in a snarky way. That's just how TV shows (that you don't write yourself) work).

Moffat saying "she's really important guys YOU'LL SEE" doesn't justify making it all about her.

This was Amy for most of season 5. And I didn't like it. I still don't lol. (Even though I'm coming around to her character)

I loved TEC/TDD so hard. Everything else he's written for the series has been such samey crap though. Ugh. And especially now that he's showrunner. I seriously don't know if I'll keep watching the show anymore... I managed through series 5 mostly running just on the fact that I really like Eleven, but a whole series of River Song and all of Moffat's writing flaws? Might have to count me out. :\

I think the big issue is that Moff is a teller and not a shower. He hammers you over the head with the importance and brilliance of characters instead of letting them show you themselves. I find it more tolerable with River because at least we know she's clever and she can wield a gun like no other and hold her own against the Doctor and aliens.

Yeah, I know it's his show, but that doesn't mean I have to like it, lol. And this goes along with what we're saying, too, about Moffat being a teller and not a shower -- I don't see any reason to give one single fuck about River Song, especially not enough to want to see a whole season of her! He hasn't given me a reason to care, whereas the Master was both a compelling villain and one with a history that made me care enough to want to see his story.

I hate Amy, so using her as an example is sooo not a good idea, lol. I can't stand her. Or Rory. ...actually, Moffat has yet to write a companion or major character I do like except for whatsisname, Mark Sheppard's character, and that might just have been because I effing love Mark Sheppard.

That is some of his issue. But it's not all of it -- my biggest problem with him is sheer lack of originality, as I mentioned. All of his plots are recycled. I mentioned to my aunt the other day, "He's trying to make every episode of Doctor Who into the same tired, cliche horror movie, and it's not working, it's not even scary, let alone a good story!" He uses the same tropes in every episode. And series 5 was basically all about him stealing elements of RTD's episodes in some horrible attempt to "one up" RTD's seasons (I did a whole writeup on this and all the things he stole, but I don't feel like going to find it). Ostensibly basing River off of The Time-Traveler's Wife, the constant re-use of the "you can't see it so it's scary" trope, the endless lineup of "creepy" small children... I think everything he does he's done before.

And that's before you even get into his views on men, women, sex and romance. UGH.

And series 5 was basically all about him stealing elements of RTD's episodes in some horrible attempt to "one up" RTD's seasons (I did a whole writeup on this and all the things he stole, but I don't feel like going to find it).

Can we just talk about how Amy started off as a shit remake of Donna? Seriously.

Oh god, SERIOUSLY. She did!

I seriously think Moffat resents the hell out of the fact that anyone else has ever written for DW, and it shows in his writing. He outright steals from and attempts to "one up" the episodes/characters/events of seasons he wasn't show-runner during, and when he was writing for DW under RTD, he sidelined and ignored the characters he didn't create (Rose, for example). And now that he is showrunner, he merrily ignores any characters, events, or history that he didn't write, as if he can just pretend this is the very first Doctor and he wouldn't have any attachments or contacts with, say, prior companions, or anything.

It's really kind of infuriating, that he's taking a show with such a rich history and boiling it down until all that's left is what he's created. It's disgusting, tbh.

he's taking a show with such a rich history and boiling it down until all that's left is what he's created.

I think you really hit the nail on the head here, for why I don't like Eleven so much. With Nine and Ten, even though I've barely watched any of the old Who, I still felt like they were part of something bigger. Now I'm not getting that feeling so much any more...
Though I really don't know enough about DW in all its seasons to know if my complaint is justified =/

I feel much the same. I love Eleven's personality, and who is as a character I do like for the most part, but... his story, his seasons thus far are so far disconnected from the Doctor Who canon that I don't even feel like I'm watching the same show anymore. There's no connection to Old Who or even the rest of New Who -- Moffat ignores all of that vast history simply because he can't stomach that someone else wrote it.

Having seen a bit of Old Who, and having it on good authority from someone who's seen a lot more that my intuition is right here, I'd say your complaint is definitely justified. I'm not even really a big fan of Old Who (I'm one of those insufferable people who finds it hard to watch older television shows seriously), but I squeed when RTD referenced back to aliens, events and such from Old Who that weren't Daleks and Cybermen; I squeed and loved it when he brought Sarah Jane Smith onto the show. I especially loved that his series' referenced back to each other and had a canon continuity -- Martha showing up and being a big part of The Sontaran Stratagem two-parter, Mickey coming back in the Army of Ghosts two-parter, and so on.

Moffat's series don't do that. At all. They simply pretend the show before Moffat never existed, and not only does it give a sense of disconnect that jars me out of enjoying the show and spoils a lot of its feel, but it feels out of tone and out of character for the Doctor, even in a new regeneration, to never even think of his past companions. I don't find that believable for the character, especially in New Who, where his connections to his companions have been so deep and lasting.

But Moffat doesn't like to think about other people having "tainted" his Doctor Who, and he hates to write characters that he himself didn't create, so... there you have it. A Doctor Who without the rich history that makes it Doctor Who.

OMG, Sarah Jane Smith. She was one of the people I had a total "huh?" moment over, because I didn't know who she was before - but I liked the feeling of the Doctor having a previous history, and Sarah Jane was so awesome.

And yeah, I loved the inner-continuity. Even characters I liked a bit less, I was super happy whenever they came back for cameos in other episodes. IMO, it really gave you the feel of 'time'. Just because the Doctor isn't somewhere, doesn't mean life doesn't go on.

I think there was one moment where Eleven vaguely referenced the occurrences of the previous season... but it didn't really go anywhere. Maybe that's another reason River annoys me a bit - she's one of the few vestiges from the previous season, and nobody else gets to come back.

It sounds a bit like maybe Moffat should reconsider writing for a shared canon =/ though iirc, his episodes before Eleven were pretty good.

I loved Sarah Jane from like, the minute she came on screen. I didn't know her, but my best friend (whom I watched it with) did, and she was sure to inform me who she was and how cool she was before we watched, and she completely lived up to it. Having now seen some of her Old Who eps, I love her even more. Sarah Jane Smith is amazing. (RIP Elisabeth Sladen. ♥ )

Exactly! That's exactly it-- and sometimes even if it's a character you didn't like much the first time, they come back ten times more awesome, and it's just great to see. I didn't like Martha much in series three, but you better believe I fangirled her hardcore after the Sontaran Stratagem two-parter! The continuity thing, the way the world keeps turning even after the Doctor's gone... I feel like that's been a major theme of New Who through series four, and I'm sorely upset that Moffat broke that off so completely when he took over.

Yeah, it basically doesn't happen. And the thing is... River only gets to come back because Moffat ensured, through how he ended the Silence in the Library / Forest of the Dead two-parter, that River would be his alone and no one else could write for her. She was "untouched" by RTD or other writers, so she was allowed to come back.

Yeah, Moffat should never have written for a shared canon at all. He doesn't do it well.

As far as his episodes before Eleven, I really can't stand any of them but The Empty Child / The Doctor Dances two-parter. This artlce (http://io9.com/#!5022250/why-steven-moffat-isnt-all-that) pretty clearly illustrates some of the problems with his RTD-era episodes. Suffice to say the massive plotholes, sexualization of the Doctor, sidelining of current companions, and so on really got to me.

Martha is the perfect example for me too! During her run, I was a bit ambivalent about her (I liked Rose more, and then OMG Donna). But when she came back later, I was all over that XD I loved what she made of herself.
Same with Mickey! I was so happy that he didn't stay the jilted boyfriend, but kept living and changed and became awesome.

Also, I liked that Rose had a history - true, we didn't get bales of episodes about her friends and whatnot, but we got to see her connection with her mother and how everything affected that. Amy seems a bit of a standalone, for me. Where's her previous life, huh?

That article really is interesting, thanks for the link! I liked TEC/TDD and Blink, but the other episodes I wasn't such a huge fan of. Though, I didn't really pay too much attention to who wrote which episode.

Exactly, yes! I love it when you get to see the former companions, even, growing and becoming more -- after the Doctor's left them. Sarah Jane keeping on investigating ("doing what we always did!"), Mickey becoming amazing and badass, Martha's evolution and achievements, and on and on... you see who they become once the Doctor leaves them, and you see how amazing that can be. Even Rose, who broke through dimensions to help the Doctor.

Moffat's taking away the ability to see that -- and in a big way it's because I just don't think he's capable of writing that caliber of story. He just doesn't do character growth and development, especially not for his female characters. Amy, for example, changed not one whit between her first appearance and the recent episodes; she's still exactly the same person (for the worse, IMO). And since Moffat is unwilling to let her go and give Eleven a new companion, we won't ever see her after the Doctor -- again, partially because I don't believe Moffat knows how to write that kind of a story. I don't think he could believably show how someone would develop in the wake of traveling with the Doctor.

The history is a good point, too. None of Moffat's characters have that -- at all. Amy doesn't seem to have a family, or it was eaten by a crack in the wall, or some shit, so she doesn't remember them... fine, whatever. But what about Rory? What about all those people at their wedding? None of those people worried or cared when the both of them vanished for ages? Rory doesn't have any family? And River Song, of course, we're not meant to have any knowledge about. So basically, he's disconnected his characters from any kind of relatable history. Part of the reason we as viewers are able to identify with and connect with characters like Rose and Martha and Donna is because we feel so deeply like we know them; we know what their parents are like, we've seen their flat, we know some of their friends, and we have an idea of what their lives are like! We know that Rose's mum is a bit of a flake and has a sometimes-boyfriend who gets hungry in his sleep; we know that Martha's parents are divorced and her dad has a new girlfriend that nobody likes much; we know that Donna's mother is kind of overbearing but her grandfather is very loving and a bit odd. We knew that Martha was a medical student and that Rose worked at a department store and that Donna was a temp office worker. This is all stuff that helps us relate to the characters and feel like we know them. It's also a lot of development for the characters -- and Moffat is rubbish at development, so of course he finds ways to disconnect characters from this or the need from it, unwittingly - or perhaps just carelessly - cutting his viewers off from one of the biggest avenues for identification with a character that you can get.

You're welcome! I actually didn't like Blink at all, and the reaction from other fans was so huge I just thought there was something wrong with me, lol. I always paid attention after I started hearing Moffat lauded for writing "Blink"... and okay, because I wanted to know what idiot wrote "The Girl in the Fireplace," because god I hated that episode! lol.

I think that's one of the things that really made me love the Doctor. Not because he saves the day every time, but you see how many people grew to become better because of him. He encouraged people to believe in themselves and what they could do, and make the best of it. Even Donna, who had to lose her memories, was in a better situation than she had previously been. Almost all the characters ended up using the experience with the Doctor to further their own growth.

Heck, The Stolen Earth and Journey's End were over-the-top and melodramatic, but I didn't care because we got to see everybody ever being awesome on screen at the same time.

IA, both Amy and Rory are so... disconnected. I hardly even feel like they come from a specific time period, or a specific place. There are no consequences to them vanishing, which is something I really loved about the previous seasons. It's funny, because until you pointed it out, I hardly realized how much we know about the previous companions. But it's true, they're really people to me. I think that's why they embody the Companion fantasy so well - they started out as just your everyday people, and then everything changed. With Amy, I felt like she had... idk, a certain glamour from the beginning. She wasn't a "regular" person.
Also, I liked how the aliens eventually affected the rest of the world, in the previous seasons.

I think it's more that Moffat isn't quite managing character development, not that he's not trying. Or at least, not managing to convince us (since other people obviously don't have this discontinuity problem with the current season).

I think I liked Blink because the concept was pretty cool, I thought the suspense was well done, and I tended to like the episodes in which the Doctor doesn't play such a big role. I think because those episodes fleshed out the world for me, showing how people who aren't constantly involved with the Doctor can be influenced by him swooping in and out of their lives.
"The Girl in the Fireplace" was pretty what, I agree. I mean, the concept of random bits of France showing up in that spaceship was neat, but the development was kind of meh. "Silence in the Library" and "Forest of the Dead" stand out more in my memory as episodes I'm vastly ambivalent about. On one hand... they were cool. On the other hand...I didn't like the resolution one bit.

You know, I've not gotten around to starting series six yet, even though this is the first time I've actually been able to see the episodes as they air, and I think you've put your finger on just why I can't muster up the energy to watch them yet. I don't dislike Eleven or his companions, I just... don't know them.

Also, I liked that Rose had a history - true, we didn't get bales of episodes about her friends and whatnot, but we got to see her connection with her mother and how everything affected that. Amy seems a bit of a standalone, for me. Where's her previous life, huh?

Thanks. I was wondering why I don't care too much about Amy, and this helped me figure it out. Rose isn't my favorite companion either, and she annoyed me at times, but I still had some investment in her character at the end of the day. Because she came across as a person, even if it was an annoying person (YMMV of course).

I feel you on the disconnect (it's one of the reasons I don't connect with Eleven-era Who so well even when I adore the writing), but I'm baffled as to where you're getting that view of Moffat's attitude. Moff's a fanboy. He knows Who canon back to front and adores it, and he's always the first to jump in and defend RTD's writing when someone tries to pit them against each other. He was also under pressure to establish himself as head writer of a franchise that'd been RTD's brainchild ever since the reboot. If anything, I think the lack of references to previous continuity is him overcompensating and clamping down way too hard on his fanboy tendencies, trying to win over the non-niche general audiences who (he thinks) want new/original adventures rather than in-jokes and rehashes of RTD.

I'm not trying to claim the balance of new to old isn't off, because it is. I'm just not convinced the motives behind it are anything so sinister.

To me, it's always felt like he was competing with RTD here. It's always come off to me as though Moffat just despises anything he hasn't personally written for the series -- the way he sidelined current companions when he wrote during RTD's era, the way he refuses to reference anything from RTD's era now that he's showrunner (let alone Old Who), and so on. Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, but you can't deny his obvious distaste for Rose in the episodes he wrote when she was on the show... and he sidelines Martha in much the same way in "Blink" (it's impressive, really, how he managed to noticeably sideline the Doctor's companion in a Doctor-lite episode).

A large part of series five consisted of Moffat basically "one-upping" things that RTD had already done, stealing directly from RTD's work in a lot of ways. Part of this is just that Moffat is obviously not an original writer - I literally have never seen the man do anything honestly original. Part of it is that I think he wanted to establish his Doctor as "better," his companion as "better," and so on.

It came off to me as nasty. I don't follow the interviews, so I don't know what he's said really (other than his vile sexist and misogynist comments I've seen), but the way it came off in the show was particularly... nasty to me. As though he simply couldn't stand anyone else writing for the show and so he had to shun everything that came before him.

Compete? No. Set himself apart? Yes, undoubtedly, lest he leave himself open to accusations of being a copycat or a pale imitation or what-have-you. And while he did tend to work in a slightly different frame of reference from the other writers during RTD's tenure, I don't see how that translates to despising anything. Honestly, the only despising I can see is the way you apparently detest Moffat on a visceral level, and while it's fair to not like his stuff or feel like he gets too wrapped up in his own cleverness, it seems a bit weird to hate him so much that you read hatred into his motives.

Yes, undoubtedly, lest he leave himself open to accusations of being a copycat or a pale imitation or what-have-you.

Well he's been reusing so many plot devices and themes that people have been calling him a copycat/unoriginal anyway.

-Amy is the (fiery redheaded) bride that ends up in the TARDIS on the eve of her wedding.
-One woman being the key to saving the universe because her life has been being manipulated by alien/spacey stuff her whole life.
-Little children calling phones that they shouldn't be able to call/creepy child voices.
-People in spacesuits creeping around and chasing after people
-Monsters that you can't look away from or they'll disappear
-The Doctor fake-dying
-symbols scrawled on the skin in black ink

So his attempts to really break away from the past have failed since he's pretty much recycling everything. Not that is bad, per se. But it's really noticeable.

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curseangel.livejournal.com - 2011-05-05 23:09 (UTC) - Expand

I will say, from the perspective of someone who has very much been enjoying these seasons, that I also noticed what I've been calling "see, this is how you do (x)."

I think the Amy coming on to Eleven was supposed to parallel the Rose/Doctor ship. I think Rory/Amy was supposed to parallel Mickey/Rose. I could go on, but I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here. I also feel that in the TARDIS redesign, the destruction of the sonic screwdriver, and a myriad of other ways, Moffat is trying to wipe the RTD era off the map. (Not all of Who, though. To me Eleven's personality harkens back to the older (younger) doctors in a way Nine and Ten didn't (I'm not complaining about this - Time War, after all).)(Parenthesis abuse!) In some ways this makes me laugh. I have a bit of a rabid hate-on for late Ten. In some ways this makes be sad. I miss Rose/Jack/Martha/Mickey/Donna. I wish we could have references to some, and appearances from others.

This is all to say that I see it too.

Yea pretty much. And that's why I disliked season 5 so much. Moff doesn't act like he's continuing a story; he acts like he's just made this up and can take full liberties. I'm all for different styles of writing but come on! Be respectful to the past.

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