Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2011-05-13 08:02 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2011-05-13 08:02 pm
[ SECRET POST #1592 ]
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
01.
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02.
[BSG]
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03.
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04.
[Yu-Gi-Oh 5Ds]
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05.
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06.
[Supernatural]
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07.
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08.
[Glee]
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09. [repeat]
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10.
[Once Upon A Time In Mexico]
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11.
[Breakout Kings]
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12.
[Supernatural]
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13.
[Ano Hi Mita Hana no Namae o Bokutachi wa Mada Shiranai]
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14.
[Invasion America]
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15.
[Zork Nemesis]
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16.
[Waiting for Godot and Good Omens]
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17.
[Withnail & I]
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18.
[Gorillaz]
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19.
[The Young Riders]
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20.
[Pride & Prejudice]
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21.
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22.
[Shantae: Risky's Revenge]
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23.
[bbc sherlock (lestrade)]
[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]
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24. [SPOILERS for Supernatural]
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25. [SPOILERS for Ghost Trick]
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26. [SPOILERS for Harry Potter and the Forbidden Journey]
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27. [SPOILERS for Death Note]
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28. [SPOILERS for the Tudors]
29. [SPOILERS for Transformers: Dark of the Moon]
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30. [SPOILERS for Portal 2]
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31. [SPOILERS for Portal 2]
[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]
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32. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape, abuse]
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33. [TRIGGER WARNING for abuse/sexual assault]
[Glee]
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34. [SPOILERS for Doctor Who]
[TRIGGER WARNING for parent death?]
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35. [TRIGGER WARNING for ]
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36. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape, racism, abuse, and pedophilia]
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37. [TRIGGER WARNING for self-harm]
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38. [TRIGGER WARNING for sexual abuse]
[Kuroshitsuji II]
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #227.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-05-15 06:48 am (UTC)(link)Secondly, nine times out of ten, no one is doing anything wrong. Warnings have been observed, traditions have been followed, the seventeen ritual goddamned candles have been lit and all should be well...except that, again, someone wants to start shit, and they will come up with any excuse to do so. Like, for example, the whole kerfluffle over the genderqueer person who couldn't enjoy a show anymore because a friend of a friend said it appealed to
"both genders". Seriously?!
Another example would, indeed, be LARGE REPTILE WARNING. What the everliving fuck. Shakesville is already supremely ridiculous in my mind, and a hive for sfda-ri, but that just is the crown goddamn jewel. I mean...how does that even work? Do you have a specific medically diagnosed phobia of large reptiles (i.e. seeing one makes you need to cry for hours somehow?) I would hope so, because no, you do not get to ask for trigger warnings just because you don't fucking like it.
Which is why YKINMK was invented. You do not get to say something is anathema just because you don't fucking like it; you are not the Internet Pope, and you don't get to make an Index Librorum Prohibitorum. If you were warned and you read anyway, that is on you. People are not going to stop the world for your pain. No one does care about it that much. No one has to.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-05-15 06:59 am (UTC)(link)I'll give you a hint: sfd_anon is a place full of wanky, drama-loving anons who just so happen to tend to give about 2 shits more about SJ stuff than the vast majority of people on the internet. The fact that they care about SJ stuff doesn't mean they're not also assholes and wankmongers a lot of the time. And the fact that a lot of the anons are wanky assholes doesn't mean that the moment people from sfd_anon get involved in a conversation it will just be pointless trolling.
Also. There are so many people vehemently opposed to the idea of warning because somehow it's kinkshaming, so many people who will argue to the death that what they've written doesn't deserve a warning because they don't think there's anything of questionable consent or what have you in it, that I have a hard time believing that 9 times out of 10 it's just people kicking up a fuss for no reason when all the appropriate warnings are in place.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-05-15 10:18 am (UTC)(link)But the sfda-ri (the really hardcore wanker contingent) are like the self-proclaimed "/b/-tards" in that they don't care about the content of a discussion, they just want to jump on someone and tear them up. And people associate actual social justice with trolololol, and that leads to the whole "SJ WARRIORS AUGH" attitude, and it's just fucking dumb.
....That second part. Uh. Welp, I guess my thoughts on that are that if you aren't warning about what's in your fic, then, yeah, you're an asshole. :\ I mean, you don't have to warn about everything, and if the prompt said "RAPE FIC WANTED" and you wrote a rape fic people should not be shocked when, in fact, it is a rape fic, but the Internet and your kink do not excuse you from common social graces. Warning isn't kinkshaming.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-05-16 05:50 am (UTC)(link)To your last paragraph: yes, I agree with that. But I have honestly seen people (mostly people on [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com]) complain that warning for dubcon and noncon is kinkshaming, so that's where I'm coming from.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-05-16 06:18 pm (UTC)(link)I mean, reasoned discussion is great. I like what we're doing now, and if you are from sfda yourself I bear you no ill will, because clearly you're not here to perpetuate the above horseshit. Said horseshit, however, has become the memetic mark of the sfda community.
1/2
Right. Of course. I forgot, the entire world is all fixed now and nothing bad ever happens. No one is ever ignorant, no one is ever hurtful, no one is ever mean or wanky, no one ever dies and everybody lives happily ever after.
Like, for example, the whole kerfluffle over the genderqueer person who couldn't enjoy a show anymore because a friend of a friend said it appealed to
"both genders". Seriously?!
You know, we don't actually have the context for that? Or even the entire statement that was made? Somehow, I'm guessing it was more complicated than that, but once again, a person in pain's entire thesis statement on what hurt them was boiled down to its simplest, most nonsensical form, so that it could be mocked, dismissed, ignored. Made into a joke that no one has to care about, that can't possibly be worth discussing or examining or thinking about, because oh no, caring about other people is G-ddamn hard.
Another example would, indeed, be LARGE REPTILE WARNING. What the everliving fuck. Shakesville is already supremely ridiculous in my mind, and a hive for sfda-ri, but that just is the crown goddamn jewel. I mean...how does that even work? Do you have a specific medically diagnosed phobia of large reptiles (i.e. seeing one makes you need to cry for hours somehow?)
Have you never heard
"Large reptile warning" is the same bloody thing. A gesture from someone who knows that secret about someone else and cares enough about that specific person to not care if they look a little ridiculous in public.
I would hope so, because no, you do not get to ask for trigger warnings just because you don't fucking like it.
Now who's acting like the Internet Pope? Do you blog at Shakesville? No? Are you friends with any of the regulars? No? Then who are you to say what they can warn for and what they can't? Who are you to say that they can't provide what services they want in their own space to their own regulars? Isn't the whole crux of this argument that no one has the right to tell anyone else what to do in their own space? Who are you to tell people that just because you don't want to do something, they shouldn't?
Re: 1/2
(Anonymous) 2011-05-15 10:48 am (UTC)(link)Not what I said, or what I was even implying. I know, I know, intent isn't magic and you can't read my implications, so here we go: what was implied here was that in my experience, and this is just my experience, people in my fandoms have been sensible enough to follow the necessary traditions. In the wider sampling I see from F!S, people also seem to be sensible enough to follow necessary traditions.
When those necessary traditions are followed, and people start shit, can we at least agree that that is unnecessary trolling? That that is kink-shaming? Cause, uh, I don't know any other word for it, and I dislike that people can cover it up with a veneer of socially respectable horseshit. Social justice is an important enough thing that clogging it up with that kind of crap is just dumb.
You know, we don't actually have the context for that? Or even the entire statement that was made? Somehow, I'm guessing it was more complicated than that, but once again, a person in pain's entire thesis statement on what hurt them was boiled down to its simplest, most nonsensical form, so that it could be mocked, dismissed, ignored. Made into a joke that no one has to care about, that can't possibly be worth discussing or examining or thinking about, because oh no, caring about other people is G-ddamn hard.
You're right, we don't, and all we have is fragmentary evidence. But entertaining the idea that, perhaps, the fragmentary evidence is true, which I tend to believe, that sort of shit is pretty goddamn silly. I mean, I'm sorry that someone was hurt. I will add the caveat that this is true if someone was, in fact, emotionally hurt, and didn't just take umbrage at a common expression and decide to start shit over the Internet.
It is a little weird and interesting to me how very much people (like yourself) do end up caring about people's delicate personal feelings and willing to place faith in their proclaimed identities, but that's another tangent.
(I'm going to take the liberty of cutting the discussion of large reptile warning/trigger nature/etc., if you don't mind)
That is actually pretty fascinating, and I did not know about it (impertinence's story). In lieu of that, I am sorry, and I should have looked for more context despite how much I dislike Shakesville and its regulars.
In my mind, that makes it as valid as a medically diagnosed phobia, and I must eat a considerable amount of crow. On its face, I still think the concept of a "large reptile warning" is rather ridiculous, but you can't choose what's associated with abuse.
However. There are, also, people who misuse the whole concept of triggers, and use it as a "censor" button for things that they don't like for whatever reason.
I suppose I did come off as preaching to the regulars of Shakesville on the "large reptile warning" thing. Again, what I mean is that no matter how strongly you disapprove of something or fear something (like, say, large reptiles), unless you have an actual condition attached to your reaction to it (phobia, trigger events), asking for a trigger warning is pretty fucking trivializing. It's dumb.
Re: 1/2
Not what I said, or what I was even implying. I know, I know, intent isn't magic and you can't read my implications, so here we go: what was implied here was that in my experience, and this is just my experience, people in my fandoms have been sensible enough to follow the necessary traditions. In the wider sampling I see from F!S, people also seem to be sensible enough to follow necessary traditions.
See, I find a flaw in this argument, right there. Namely, if people were following the necessary traditions, we probably wouldn't get secrets from people so frequently about when they don't. Maybe some of them are trolling or wank-baiting. But a fair number of them probably are not. And dismissing every single one as a troll is, to me, very lazy. As long as we dismiss every expressed grievance as trolling, we don't have to think about how to do things differently, or even better, to make fandom more fun and inclusive for everyone. And I think fandom should be more inclusive and fun for everyone, because I don't believe in having societal cross sections where people are made to feel unwelcome. (There are exceptions to this- highly specialized spaces geared towards providing sanctuary for women, PoC, trans people, intersexed people, genderqueer people, gays, lesbians, people with disabilities, etc., might be a little exclusive of people with more privilege. But these spaces aren't the same as general fandom, where the requirement to get in is "liking this particular bit of media.")
It is a little weird and interesting to me how very much people (like yourself) do end up caring about people's delicate personal feelings and willing to place faith in their proclaimed identities, but that's another tangent.
Here's where it's going to get a little real, and a little awful.
When I was in high school, one of my close friends was raped by her boyfriend. She told me. And I didn't believe her. I didn't want to believe her, because he was my friend, too, and I didn't want to believe he would do something like that.
Years later, I know now that it was true. That he did. And not just to her, to other women we knew.
Not believing her not only destroyed my friendship with her, but made her life a living hell for a long time. And I was part of that.
I don't ever want to be that person again. I don't ever want to hurt another person like that again.
So, when people tell me about their terrible experiences with trauma and/or oppression? I believe them. It costs me nothing, and might make life for a person in pain just the tiniest bit better.
'Cause the world can be a hard, painful, scary place. And it doesn't get better by writing off every complaint as made up.
2/2
And what if you weren't? Believe it or not, warnings are not standardized in every fandom, every community, every website, every journal, every blog. Some people will warn for eating disorders; some won't. Some people will warn for character death; some won't. Some people will warn for rape; some won't. Some will warn for racism in their historical AU; some think that the fic being labeled "historical AU" should be warning enough. Some people think "I don't warn" is a warning, even though it tells you nothing about what they're not warning for. Some people think "triggery" is a warning, even though they're not mentioning which trigger. I've had the fucking surreal experience of being told off by someone for warning for incest in my own fic, because warning for incest "stigmatizes people with an incest kink, and the pairing label should be warning enough." (In my space, where I'm friends with people who will read my fic just because they're my friends, not because they're in my fandoms? No, it's bloody well not, and don't tell me that I can't run my own damn space to accommodate that.)
There is no consistent rule. And people get hurt by that, and then we all fight for months about whether or not anyone should care. And complaining about other people caring too much in their own spaces makes you the enlightened one concerned about freedom, beauty, truth and art?
I would love to be able to dismiss you as a troll, but alas, I'm pretty sure you're 100% serious.
Re: 2/2
(Anonymous) 2011-05-15 11:02 am (UTC)(link)That experience of yours is pretty fucking surreal, and the person who said that to you is pretty dumb. If you think something should be warned about, warn about it.
In my own experience, and in my own spaces/fandoms, people have exhibited pretty good common sense. And if you aren't warning for something like, say, rape, or child abuse, or other common triggers, that is asshole behavior. Warning for eating disorders is also pretty necessary. Warning about racism seems similar, although if the historical AU is the Civil War or colonial America then maybe someone should expect it.
Warning for character death...that depends.
No, there is no consistent rule, and I'm not saying that people have no right to get upset when something blindsides them or that they can't fucking care all they want in their own spaces. But...I mean, what the fuck is gained by turning around and making secrets like this, where there's value judgment all over the place and people using the excuse of pain that might or might not be real (this being the Internet, and people being able to pretend behind a shield of anonymity that they are absolutely any form of human in existence) as an excuse to cause other people pain, embarrassment, or anger?
Nothing. Nothing is gained. It's dumb. That's why YKINMK was invented; that's why people end up arguing with acronyms and with no1currs. That's the crux of my whole disagreement with the sfda-ri and Shakesville. It doesn't help to come in riding a goddamned storm of fury and call people *ist anything. It makes one look like an asshole, and then it is reasonable to treat one like an asshole.