fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1592 ]

[ SECRET POST #1592 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1592 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02.

[BSG]

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03.

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04.

[Yu-Gi-Oh 5Ds]

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05.

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06.

[Supernatural]

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07.

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08.

[Glee]

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09. [repeat]

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10.

[Once Upon A Time In Mexico]

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11.

[Breakout Kings]

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12.

[Supernatural]

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13.

[Ano Hi Mita Hana no Namae o Bokutachi wa Mada Shiranai]

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14.

[Invasion America]

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15.

[Zork Nemesis]

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16.

[Waiting for Godot and Good Omens]

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17.

[Withnail & I]

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18.

[Gorillaz]

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19.

[The Young Riders]

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20.

[Pride & Prejudice]

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21.

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22.

[Shantae: Risky's Revenge]

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23.

[bbc sherlock (lestrade)]

[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

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24. [SPOILERS for Supernatural]

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25. [SPOILERS for Ghost Trick]

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26. [SPOILERS for Harry Potter and the Forbidden Journey]

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27. [SPOILERS for Death Note]

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28. [SPOILERS for the Tudors]

29. [SPOILERS for Transformers: Dark of the Moon]

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30. [SPOILERS for Portal 2]

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31. [SPOILERS for Portal 2]

[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

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32. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape, abuse]

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33. [TRIGGER WARNING for abuse/sexual assault]

[Glee]

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34. [SPOILERS for Doctor Who]
[TRIGGER WARNING for parent death?]

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35. [TRIGGER WARNING for ]

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36. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape, racism, abuse, and pedophilia]

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37. [TRIGGER WARNING for self-harm]

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38. [TRIGGER WARNING for sexual abuse]

[Kuroshitsuji II]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #227.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Oh, I can do this all night if you like.

Also here on F!S: most any time anyone complains about a problematic kink, there are at least twenty people going, "Oh, fucking SJ Warriors, when will this SJ movement in fandom die already?"

There's the fact that people here are still mocking a "large reptile warning" on Shakesville, even though that was pretty obviously a "I know this is one of my own friends' personal, highly specific triggers" thing, not a "Oh, people will ask for warnings for anything" thing.

You could make a drinking game out of how many times people feel the need to say "no1curr" on any serious-issues-in-fandom secret.

You could also make a drinking game based on "YKINMK" and its variations. Arguing with an acronym is pretty dismissive. :-/ It says, "Your pain is not even worth engaging with for more than ten letters."

And that's just here on F!S. Anyone but me remember zvi's three-page, five-hundred-person clusterfuck comparing triggers to allergies and requests for warnings to asking a cook for her special secret recipe? Or the assholes who trolled impertinence's post about what a trigger is, saying she was clinging to her victim status and shouldn't even be in fandom? Or the miscegenation wank on

daily_deviant a few years ago? (That one was fun. It ended up on F_W, with people mocking the people who were offended by it roughly as much as they were mocking the people who had done the offending.)

ETA: BTW, if I had to guess, this secret is in response to this thread: http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/682799.html?thread=435978799#t435978799

Edited 2011-05-15 06:11 (UTC)

...People go "fucking SJ warriors" because, first and foremost, of the incorrigible shitheads from sfda, who can smell wankbait like this from miles away and come bounding over the hills in a horde that would make fucking Sranc blanch, howling for blood and jerking at their groins. These people say the absolute stupidest shit, they take over any social justice-related topic, and nothing of value happens.

Secondly, nine times out of ten, no one is doing anything wrong. Warnings have been observed, traditions have been followed, the seventeen ritual goddamned candles have been lit and all should be well...except that, again, someone wants to start shit, and they will come up with any excuse to do so. Like, for example, the whole kerfluffle over the genderqueer person who couldn't enjoy a show anymore because a friend of a friend said it appealed to
"both genders". Seriously?!

Another example would, indeed, be LARGE REPTILE WARNING. What the everliving fuck. Shakesville is already supremely ridiculous in my mind, and a hive for sfda-ri, but that just is the crown goddamn jewel. I mean...how does that even work? Do you have a specific medically diagnosed phobia of large reptiles (i.e. seeing one makes you need to cry for hours somehow?) I would hope so, because no, you do not get to ask for trigger warnings just because you don't fucking like it.

Which is why YKINMK was invented. You do not get to say something is anathema just because you don't fucking like it; you are not the Internet Pope, and you don't get to make an Index Librorum Prohibitorum. If you were warned and you read anyway, that is on you. People are not going to stop the world for your pain. No one does care about it that much. No one has to.

God damn, you're right. [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com] is the root of all evil, the abode of all those horrible SJ warriors plugging up the internet with their cries for self-examination and discussion of oppression.

I'll give you a hint: sfd_anon is a place full of wanky, drama-loving anons who just so happen to tend to give about 2 shits more about SJ stuff than the vast majority of people on the internet. The fact that they care about SJ stuff doesn't mean they're not also assholes and wankmongers a lot of the time. And the fact that a lot of the anons are wanky assholes doesn't mean that the moment people from sfd_anon get involved in a conversation it will just be pointless trolling.

Also. There are so many people vehemently opposed to the idea of warning because somehow it's kinkshaming, so many people who will argue to the death that what they've written doesn't deserve a warning because they don't think there's anything of questionable consent or what have you in it, that I have a hard time believing that 9 times out of 10 it's just people kicking up a fuss for no reason when all the appropriate warnings are in place.

Except when they show up they're usually not satisfied with self-examination and discussion. I like self-examination and discussion; I am honest-to-God in favor of social justice myself. I like it when I see social issues get actually discussed on F!S, and people learn things!

But the sfda-ri (the really hardcore wanker contingent) are like the self-proclaimed "/b/-tards" in that they don't care about the content of a discussion, they just want to jump on someone and tear them up. And people associate actual social justice with trolololol, and that leads to the whole "SJ WARRIORS AUGH" attitude, and it's just fucking dumb.

....That second part. Uh. Welp, I guess my thoughts on that are that if you aren't warning about what's in your fic, then, yeah, you're an asshole. :\ I mean, you don't have to warn about everything, and if the prompt said "RAPE FIC WANTED" and you wrote a rape fic people should not be shocked when, in fact, it is a rape fic, but the Internet and your kink do not excuse you from common social graces. Warning isn't kinkshaming.

I ask you to reread my second paragraph, which explains that just because plenty of sfd_anoners are just trolling when they comment in other places, it doesn't mean there aren't also those who are arguing in earnest.

To your last paragraph: yes, I agree with that. But I have honestly seen people (mostly people on [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com]) complain that warning for dubcon and noncon is kinkshaming, so that's where I'm coming from.

If someone is in earnest when they say shit like "you sound white", dogpile someone for a perceived slight, or honestly believe hateful behavior on the basis of something someone can't control is a good and right thing, then they are a fucking douchenozzle and they are worse than a troll, honestly.

I mean, reasoned discussion is great. I like what we're doing now, and if you are from sfda yourself I bear you no ill will, because clearly you're not here to perpetuate the above horseshit. Said horseshit, however, has become the memetic mark of the sfda community.

Warnings have been observed, traditions have been followed, the seventeen ritual goddamned candles have been lit and all should be well.

Right. Of course. I forgot, the entire world is all fixed now and nothing bad ever happens. No one is ever ignorant, no one is ever hurtful, no one is ever mean or wanky, no one ever dies and everybody lives happily ever after.

Like, for example, the whole kerfluffle over the genderqueer person who couldn't enjoy a show anymore because a friend of a friend said it appealed to
"both genders". Seriously?!

You know, we don't actually have the context for that? Or even the entire statement that was made? Somehow, I'm guessing it was more complicated than that, but once again, a person in pain's entire thesis statement on what hurt them was boiled down to its simplest, most nonsensical form, so that it could be mocked, dismissed, ignored. Made into a joke that no one has to care about, that can't possibly be worth discussing or examining or thinking about, because oh no, caring about other people is G-ddamn hard.

Another example would, indeed, be LARGE REPTILE WARNING. What the everliving fuck. Shakesville is already supremely ridiculous in my mind, and a hive for sfda-ri, but that just is the crown goddamn jewel. I mean...how does that even work? Do you have a specific medically diagnosed phobia of large reptiles (i.e. seeing one makes you need to cry for hours somehow?)

Have you never heard

impertinence tell the story of her calculus trigger? (http://impertinence.dreamwidth.org/470578.html) (Warning: Very explicit discussion of sexual assault and the nature, anatomy, cause & effect of triggers. Is itself triggery.) If you haven't, it's worth a read. It is, in part, the story of how an innocuous thing no one could possibly understand became part of the pathology of someone's suffering. One thread in the fabric of their suffering.

impertinence doesn't ask for calculus warnings. But if I ever wrote a fic that included calculus, I'd warn for it, because I know her specifically and like her specifically and if she specifically was reading something of mine, I'd tell her in advance because I knew. Not because everyone on earth is obligated to know everyone else on earth's specific triggers, but because I, me, specifically, know that that is one for her, and because I care about not hurting her, I'd do it. It's not a moral imperative. It's a gesture from one individual person who knows something about someone else, to that individual someone else, that is meant to say I am happy to make my individual space safe for her. No one else has to do that if they don't want to. She hasn't asked for it, and I'm not asking them for it on her behalf. (Indeed, it'd be pretty arrogant of me to do, when she and I are, at best, semi-acquaintances with friends in common. But I like and respect her, so I care about welcoming her into my space, should she ever choose to stop by.)

"Large reptile warning" is the same bloody thing. A gesture from someone who knows that secret about someone else and cares enough about that specific person to not care if they look a little ridiculous in public.

I would hope so, because no, you do not get to ask for trigger warnings just because you don't fucking like it.

Now who's acting like the Internet Pope? Do you blog at Shakesville? No? Are you friends with any of the regulars? No? Then who are you to say what they can warn for and what they can't? Who are you to say that they can't provide what services they want in their own space to their own regulars? Isn't the whole crux of this argument that no one has the right to tell anyone else what to do in their own space? Who are you to tell people that just because you don't want to do something, they shouldn't?

Right. Of course. I forgot, the entire world is all fixed now and nothing bad ever happens. No one is ever ignorant, no one is ever hurtful, no one is ever mean or wanky, no one ever dies and everybody lives happily ever after.

Not what I said, or what I was even implying. I know, I know, intent isn't magic and you can't read my implications, so here we go: what was implied here was that in my experience, and this is just my experience, people in my fandoms have been sensible enough to follow the necessary traditions. In the wider sampling I see from F!S, people also seem to be sensible enough to follow necessary traditions.

When those necessary traditions are followed, and people start shit, can we at least agree that that is unnecessary trolling? That that is kink-shaming? Cause, uh, I don't know any other word for it, and I dislike that people can cover it up with a veneer of socially respectable horseshit. Social justice is an important enough thing that clogging it up with that kind of crap is just dumb.

You know, we don't actually have the context for that? Or even the entire statement that was made? Somehow, I'm guessing it was more complicated than that, but once again, a person in pain's entire thesis statement on what hurt them was boiled down to its simplest, most nonsensical form, so that it could be mocked, dismissed, ignored. Made into a joke that no one has to care about, that can't possibly be worth discussing or examining or thinking about, because oh no, caring about other people is G-ddamn hard.

You're right, we don't, and all we have is fragmentary evidence. But entertaining the idea that, perhaps, the fragmentary evidence is true, which I tend to believe, that sort of shit is pretty goddamn silly. I mean, I'm sorry that someone was hurt. I will add the caveat that this is true if someone was, in fact, emotionally hurt, and didn't just take umbrage at a common expression and decide to start shit over the Internet.

It is a little weird and interesting to me how very much people (like yourself) do end up caring about people's delicate personal feelings and willing to place faith in their proclaimed identities, but that's another tangent.

(I'm going to take the liberty of cutting the discussion of large reptile warning/trigger nature/etc., if you don't mind)

That is actually pretty fascinating, and I did not know about it (impertinence's story). In lieu of that, I am sorry, and I should have looked for more context despite how much I dislike Shakesville and its regulars.

In my mind, that makes it as valid as a medically diagnosed phobia, and I must eat a considerable amount of crow. On its face, I still think the concept of a "large reptile warning" is rather ridiculous, but you can't choose what's associated with abuse.

However. There are, also, people who misuse the whole concept of triggers, and use it as a "censor" button for things that they don't like for whatever reason.

I suppose I did come off as preaching to the regulars of Shakesville on the "large reptile warning" thing. Again, what I mean is that no matter how strongly you disapprove of something or fear something (like, say, large reptiles), unless you have an actual condition attached to your reaction to it (phobia, trigger events), asking for a trigger warning is pretty fucking trivializing. It's dumb.

Sorry for taking a while to get back to you- sibling's graduation was yesterday, kind of took up a lot of time.

Not what I said, or what I was even implying. I know, I know, intent isn't magic and you can't read my implications, so here we go: what was implied here was that in my experience, and this is just my experience, people in my fandoms have been sensible enough to follow the necessary traditions. In the wider sampling I see from F!S, people also seem to be sensible enough to follow necessary traditions.

See, I find a flaw in this argument, right there. Namely, if people were following the necessary traditions, we probably wouldn't get secrets from people so frequently about when they don't. Maybe some of them are trolling or wank-baiting. But a fair number of them probably are not. And dismissing every single one as a troll is, to me, very lazy. As long as we dismiss every expressed grievance as trolling, we don't have to think about how to do things differently, or even better, to make fandom more fun and inclusive for everyone. And I think fandom should be more inclusive and fun for everyone, because I don't believe in having societal cross sections where people are made to feel unwelcome. (There are exceptions to this- highly specialized spaces geared towards providing sanctuary for women, PoC, trans people, intersexed people, genderqueer people, gays, lesbians, people with disabilities, etc., might be a little exclusive of people with more privilege. But these spaces aren't the same as general fandom, where the requirement to get in is "liking this particular bit of media.")

It is a little weird and interesting to me how very much people (like yourself) do end up caring about people's delicate personal feelings and willing to place faith in their proclaimed identities, but that's another tangent.

Here's where it's going to get a little real, and a little awful.

When I was in high school, one of my close friends was raped by her boyfriend. She told me. And I didn't believe her. I didn't want to believe her, because he was my friend, too, and I didn't want to believe he would do something like that.

Years later, I know now that it was true. That he did. And not just to her, to other women we knew.

Not believing her not only destroyed my friendship with her, but made her life a living hell for a long time. And I was part of that.

I don't ever want to be that person again. I don't ever want to hurt another person like that again.

So, when people tell me about their terrible experiences with trauma and/or oppression? I believe them. It costs me nothing, and might make life for a person in pain just the tiniest bit better.

'Cause the world can be a hard, painful, scary place. And it doesn't get better by writing off every complaint as made up.

If you were warned and you read anyway, that is on you.

And what if you weren't? Believe it or not, warnings are not standardized in every fandom, every community, every website, every journal, every blog. Some people will warn for eating disorders; some won't. Some people will warn for character death; some won't. Some people will warn for rape; some won't. Some will warn for racism in their historical AU; some think that the fic being labeled "historical AU" should be warning enough. Some people think "I don't warn" is a warning, even though it tells you nothing about what they're not warning for. Some people think "triggery" is a warning, even though they're not mentioning which trigger. I've had the fucking surreal experience of being told off by someone for warning for incest in my own fic, because warning for incest "stigmatizes people with an incest kink, and the pairing label should be warning enough." (In my space, where I'm friends with people who will read my fic just because they're my friends, not because they're in my fandoms? No, it's bloody well not, and don't tell me that I can't run my own damn space to accommodate that.)

There is no consistent rule. And people get hurt by that, and then we all fight for months about whether or not anyone should care. And complaining about other people caring too much in their own spaces makes you the enlightened one concerned about freedom, beauty, truth and art?

I would love to be able to dismiss you as a troll, but alas, I'm pretty sure you're 100% serious.

If you weren't warned, then feel free to raise a fuss. It doesn't sound like the maker of the secret wasn't warned, it sounds like they just wanted to cause drama.

That experience of yours is pretty fucking surreal, and the person who said that to you is pretty dumb. If you think something should be warned about, warn about it.

In my own experience, and in my own spaces/fandoms, people have exhibited pretty good common sense. And if you aren't warning for something like, say, rape, or child abuse, or other common triggers, that is asshole behavior. Warning for eating disorders is also pretty necessary. Warning about racism seems similar, although if the historical AU is the Civil War or colonial America then maybe someone should expect it.

Warning for character death...that depends.

No, there is no consistent rule, and I'm not saying that people have no right to get upset when something blindsides them or that they can't fucking care all they want in their own spaces. But...I mean, what the fuck is gained by turning around and making secrets like this, where there's value judgment all over the place and people using the excuse of pain that might or might not be real (this being the Internet, and people being able to pretend behind a shield of anonymity that they are absolutely any form of human in existence) as an excuse to cause other people pain, embarrassment, or anger?

Nothing. Nothing is gained. It's dumb. That's why YKINMK was invented; that's why people end up arguing with acronyms and with no1currs. That's the crux of my whole disagreement with the sfda-ri and Shakesville. It doesn't help to come in riding a goddamned storm of fury and call people *ist anything. It makes one look like an asshole, and then it is reasonable to treat one like an asshole.

I'm pretty sure I'd be considered an "SJer" here, we're not a fucking monolith.

Large reptiles. Um. It was nice of that person to include a warning for their friend. But. Thought we were discussing mockery of things that are actually controversial, but I guess someone here has lost the thread of the actual conversation.

You could also make a drinking game based on "YKINMK" and its variations. Arguing with an acronym is pretty dismissive. :-/ It says, "Your pain is not even worth engaging with for more than ten letters."

After you've spent years and years defending yourself with the best-thought arguments you can express and getting back nothing but a pile-on of, "you're a horrible person, kill yourself" - unanon, mind you, people proud of those opinions and not trolling - you'd come back with ten letters eventually, too. I am pretty much at that point nowadays.

You're right though, no1curr about people deeply wounded by large reptiles. GUESS YOU WIN, THEN.

GUESS YOU WIN, THEN.

I'm sorry, were we competing? You asked a question. I gave an answer. If I seemed short with you, I apologize. It was very late, I was very tired (plus I've got a chest cold kicking my ass). So, sorry.

Thought we were discussing mockery of things that are actually controversial, but I guess someone here has lost the thread of the actual conversation.

I'm guessing that someone is me, but in my head, it made sense. Warnings are controversial. What to warn for is controversial. "Warnings creep" is an actual thing people express concern about every time the debate comes back up. ("If I warn for rape, character death, eating disorders, animal abuse, insert other common trigger here, people will start asking me for warnings for beach balls or the color orange! So I don't believe in warnings at all!" Yes, that really happened. (http://zvi.dreamwidth.org/528976.html?format=light))

After you've spent years and years defending yourself with the best-thought arguments you can express and getting back nothing but a pile-on of, "you're a horrible person, kill yourself" - unanon, mind you, people proud of those opinions and not trolling - you'd come back with ten letters eventually, too. I am pretty much at that point nowadays.

I am genuinely sorry that that has happened to you. For what it's worth, I don't think you're a horrible person because you have a kink that isn't kinky for everyone. (I don't want to suggest yours is a trigger when I don't know what it is- and you are not obligated to tell me what it is. Hi, we're strangers.) And I think anyone who tells anyone else to kill themselves- whether they're anonymous or not- is a horrible person.

But I think we're coming at this from completely different experiences in fandom.

Mine has been that kink is fandom's sacred cow and expressing discomfort with a kink (even if it's in a locked, cut, warned post on my own journal not naming any names or providing any links) will result in people telling me, "Don't judge" or "Don't shame." It counts as judging or shaming to say, "This hurts" somewhere well away from the person whose kink it is? How can that be?

And that...gets exhausting.

I'm Jewish. I live in a part of my country where Antisemitism actually is a part of my daily life. In fact, given that I'm religiously a convert (ethnically Sephardi on my mother's mother's side) whose parents practice something else, Antisemitism is part of interacting with my family and their friends.

For me, Holocaust kink AUs are not awesome. They hurt. People eroticizing the torture of Jews does, y'know, bad things to my mind. And sure, I can choose not to read; I do choose not to read. But quietly wishing behind my own locked door that this wouldn't occur unwarned for in places I hang out ('cause it does- oh, G-d, it does), being told that I'm shaming someone feels like being stabbed in the heart. I live in a world where a stranger's ability to get off on something that hurts me is more important to some people- people I've liked and trusted, for that matter- than my ability to live my life without feeling like people out there really hate people like me. (Yes, I know, having a Nazi kink doesn't mean someone is an Antisemite. ...but it does mean people are getting off on the concept of other people being Antisemites, and that's a pretty awful feeling, too.)

And at that point, I'm not experiencing this as a difference of opinion. I'm experiencing it as part of the pattern of discrimination. And I'm not the only one.

People (http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/645587.html?thread=411237075#t411237075) mock (http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/645587.html?thread=411694803#t411694803) that. (http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/645587.html?thread=411384275#t411384275) Not only do they mock it, they use it as fuel for hate speech. (http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/645587.html?thread=411209683#t411209683)

TL;DR- yeah. It happens.

Okay, first of all, I have been actively engaging on this topic in earnest for years now, and I'm getting increasingly sick of having the nonny trolls ascribed to my "side." I have no idea how much actual investment those people have in this debate, and neither do you. For all I know, they are shit-stirring for their own personal amusement and aren't kinky or fetishists at all.

Secondly, I got pissed because of you going off on what I think is a serious tangent with the triggers thing. Based on what you've said, I really don't think we disagree at all about triggers, and would probably be arguing the same thing in that debate (oh god, another debate I'm really sick of). But I consider it to be only somewhat related; generally, when people get upset about "offensive" kinks, it's not because they were actually triggered. (Or if they are, they do not mention it.)

But I think all of the usual potentially-triggering stuff should be warned for; I think it's a mistake to even call that "courtesy," because "courtesy" implies there's no real reason to do it. I don't see that as significantly different from the way offensive types of play (race play, "rape" scenes, Nazi-fetishism) is handled by the kink community in real life (not allowed or discussed in public spaces, or only in spaces clearly designated for that thing only, depending). That is, I think, the best compromise for kinks that make other people feel deeply violated and hated (although I doubt that is actually usually how the people with those kinks would want anyone to feel).

But when something IS warned for, yeah, people need to stop it with the shaming.

Someone I know in passing through these debates made the observation once that people who actually get involved in these discussions are nearly always leftists, and frequently social-justice types themselves. (Not only that, I'd observe that the majority are bound to be women as well.) And that there is probably not a group MORE emotionally vulnerable to the charge of "selfish slut!" than SJ leftist women, who already spend a significant amount of time worrying about the impact of their actions on others, and already spend enough time being shamed for their sexualities (as women).

Which is probably a large part of the reason why a significant portion of my kinky friends have been through periods of depression and/or suicidal ideation over their kinks, while the right-wing people I've met are unlikely to be bovvered so long as they're not "all sex is bad" types - and they're in the minority anyway, as self-identified kinky people are usually leftists or moderates, period.

And it's out of hand when people are not just feeling shamed in fandom, but actually leaving SJ movements over it. Not something I've been tempted to do myself, but I understand why others would.

Maybe as an American this is just "internet opinions" to you, but you live in a country where free speech is protected, and it's unlikely that someone is going to be successful in criminalizing every expression of sexuality they find offensive or hurtful to others where you are. Would it make you happy if possessing any pornography that might be offensive or hurtful to a group of people was made illegal where you are? The possibility fucking terrifies me.

Okay, first of all, I have been actively engaging on this topic in earnest for years now, and I'm getting increasingly sick of having the nonny trolls ascribed to my "side." I have no idea how much actual investment those people have in this debate, and neither do you. For all I know, they are shit-stirring for their own personal amusement and aren't kinky or fetishists at all.

They might not be. But I'm not sure how that makes the ugliness they put out there invisible, or less hurtful. You didn't ask me to provide links to people on your "side" doing the mocking. You asked if the mocking exists. And if it's not common enough or occurring from people posting under their own names often enough or whatever else, that still doesn't make it any less hurtful.

Secondly, I got pissed because of you going off on what I think is a serious tangent with the triggers thing. Based on what you've said, I really don't think we disagree at all about triggers, and would probably be arguing the same thing in that debate (oh god, another debate I'm really sick of). But I consider it to be only somewhat related; generally, when people get upset about "offensive" kinks, it's not because they were actually triggered. (Or if they are, they do not mention it.)

I added emphasis to that because I think it's important to point out that just because people don't tell you it's a trigger, doesn't mean it's not one or that wasn't why they're saying something. Speaking for myself here, I hate saying I was triggered by anything. I hate it because I have a conditioned reflex to expressing pain of any kind that says, "Do this calmly, do this gently, do it rationally- don't tell anyone how much it hurts. You'll be burdening the nice people and encouraging the mean people if you say how much pain you're in." Admitting something hurts leaves me coiled in on myself, feeling terrified that the person on the receiving end is making a value judgment on whether

1) I'm telling the truth.
2) I'm not exaggerating.
3) If that matters.

How many people are there around fandom- otherwise perfectly reasonable people- claiming that sometimes, people say they were triggered as a way to push a censorship button on something they don't like? Essentially saying someone is faking it just to make their pearl-clutching sound important? And then they tsk, tsk about it because it's trivializing for people with "real" triggers?

This is why warnings and the debate surrounding them and kink shaming are not separate or tangential issues to me. Because I have been told, on more than one occasion, that asking for a warning or even displaying a warning in my own fic IS kink shaming. Because it "implies the kink is something dangerous" and "stigmatizes the people who have that kink."

Which is why this:

But when something IS warned for, yeah, people need to stop it with the shaming.

Gets to me. Because expressing a pained desire for warnings (privately, for that matter, not even asking the writers for them anymore, that went out the window ages ago) is counted by people I know, and some people I don't, as kink shaming. You are not addressing this, and it is the entire crux of what I am saying- go back and look at my last comment if you want: I think an *ism kink needs a warning label, and asking for one has been written off as kink shaming. Also by people who are not anonymous and are proud of that opinion. So where are we now?

Maybe as an American this is just "internet opinions" to you, but you live in a country where free speech is protected, and it's unlikely that someone is going to be successful in criminalizing every expression of sexuality they find offensive or hurtful to others where you are. Would it make you happy if possessing any pornography that might be offensive or hurtful to a group of people was made illegal where you are? The possibility fucking terrifies me.

...okay, three things:

1) Point to where I even used the phrase "internet opinions" in this thread. I never did. I actually kind of think people's internet opinions are important, because I tend to assume their internet opinions are their real ones.

2) Point to me where I said anything about wanting anything banned or made illegal or even "not done." My complaint in this entire thread has been, begins and ends with, the fact that *ism kinks are not consistently held to the same warning standards in fandom as things like rape, and complaining about that is dismissed as kink shaming, and has been mocked.

3) Pornography is not actually protected speech under the United States constitution. Google "Miller v. California" sometime if you're interested in that. Pornography is not lawfully protected in the U.S if it's ruled to be obscene by community standards. Which I actually think sucks, because it allows for the prosecution of innocent people if enough people think their artwork is obscene.

I've written before on f!s about how I spent most of my adolescence in crushing shame over one of my kinks, which is very homophobic in nature; it made me feel like a "bad queer" and a traitor to queer liberation. I'm not trying to compare modern homophobia to the Holocaust, but...hating myself for that kink did nothing to help me, did nothing to stop homophobia from existing, and, most importantly, did nothing to make the kink disappear. If anything, it only made the kink stronger, more obsessive, and harder to suppress.

Seriously, it is strange for you to say, "oh, I'm so sorry someone called you a horrible person," and then proceed to say shit like:

I live in a world where a stranger's ability to get off on something that hurts me is more important to some people- people I've liked and trusted, for that matter- than my ability to live my life without feeling like people out there really hate people like me.

Because that is exactly what you're doing here, kink- and slut-shaming. Do you know how many times I've read that bolded part practically word-for-word? Like anyone fucking decides what they get off to. No really, I just feel like having an orgasm that will hurt your feelings today! I love when other people feel despised! That's sekritly why I'm a feminist, donchaknow.

(And it totally erases the Jewish people with Nazi fetishes, the POC into race play, etc. "My way of dealing with my oppression is okay, but you are not allowed to deal with your oppression in a way I find upsetting.")

And yeah, someone with the same kink who is not queer, Jewish, a rape victim, a POC, etc. is ookier. But I have long since stopped being angry at anyone solely for having an offensive fetish (and not their behaviour or actual opinions), because I know damn well what it's like to have one and not be able to get rid of it. IME, sexuality is driving down a one-way street with no brakes and no reverse, so yelling "stooooop iiiiit," is fucking worthless.

And maybe it's easier to blame and shame someone for their kink than it is to admit the frightening reality that oppression and hate get deep into our consciousness without our permission, consent or control, and that has nothing to do with the kind of people we are, or the desire to hurt others, etc.... But just because it's the easier thing to do doesn't make it the right thing to do.

I live in a world where a stranger's ability to get off on something that hurts me is more important to some people- people I've liked and trusted, for that matter- than my ability to live my life without feeling like people out there really hate people like me.

I was complaining about this:

But [when] quietly wishing behind my own locked door that this wouldn't occur unwarned for in places I hang out ('cause it does- oh, G-d, it does), being told that I'm shaming someone feels like being stabbed in the heart.

This does not excuse my phrasing being cruel or problematic, however, so I apologize for that. I honestly did not mean to make anyone feel ashamed for having a kink or enjoying/indulging it, or to imply that it's selfish to do any of the above. The behavior I'm hurt by and am trying to address is some people treating the expression of pain and the desire to avoid it, in and of itself, as shaming.

(And it totally erases the Jewish people with Nazi fetishes, the POC into race play, etc. "My way of dealing with my oppression is okay, but you are not allowed to deal with your oppression in a way I find upsetting.")

I speak for myself. I do not speak for everyone who spends their lives dealing with my *isms or other *isms. I again apologize if it seems like I was trying to.

And maybe it's easier to blame and shame someone for their kink than it is to admit the frightening reality that oppression and hate get deep into our consciousness without our permission, consent or control, and that has nothing to do with the kind of people we are, or the desire to hurt others, etc.... But just because it's the easier thing to do doesn't make it the right thing to do.

You know, there is actually not one part of this statement I disagree with? Not one.

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