Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2011-06-10 07:51 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2011-06-10 07:51 pm
[ SECRET POST #1620 ]
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
01.
[Ano Hi Mita Hana no Namae wo Bokutachi wa Mada Shiranai]
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02.
[Hetalia]
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03.
[Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha]
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04.
[Michael Silas/Asiel Hardison, Lady Gaga's dancers]
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05.
[Tiger & Bunny]
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06.
[Evangelion]
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07.
[Zero Punctuation]
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08.
[The Catherine Tate Show]
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09.
[Grimgrimoire]
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10.
[wonderful days, guyver, cowboy bebop, texhnolyze, togainu no chi, black lagoon, samurai champloo, aishiteruze baby, tenjo tenge]
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11.
[X-Men: First Class]
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12.
[Tales of the Abyss]
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13.
[Human Target]
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14.
[A Song of Ice and Fire]
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15.
[Masterchef Australia]
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16.
[Sucker Punch]
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17.
[Mystique]
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18.
[Workaholics]
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19.
[Mark Reads]
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20.
[Jamie Campbell Bower ]
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21.
[Hey Arnold!]
[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]
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22. [SPOILERS for Homestuck]
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23. [SPOILERS for Gintama]
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24. [SPOILERS for Kamen Rider Kabuto]
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25. [SPOILERS for Loveless]
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26. [SPOILERS for Doctor Who]
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27. [SPOILERS for Mockingjay]
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28. [SPOILERS for Kung Fu Panda 2]
[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]
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29. [TRIGGER WARNING for non-con]
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30. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]
[Game of Thrones]
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31. [TRIGGER WARNING for eating disorders]
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32. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]
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33. [TRIGGER WARNING for transphobia?]
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34. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]
[SPN]
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35. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape, pedophilia]
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36. [TRIGGER WARNING for eating disorders]
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37. [TRIGGER WARNING for self-injury, suicide]
[Manic Street Preachers]
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #231.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.
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And strong female characters? Yeah, that is NOT how you do them. :(
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Sorry, but no. Another author would make her the prettiest princess who ever princessed - GRRM is the only fantasy author I've ever seen to make a kickass female warrior who could actually kick ass.
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GRRM has stones, to write that. He may actually have seen that kind of swordfight before. The haters sound like they haven't even read the fucking books.
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Never mind that whole family that sends their women into battle (the Mormonts, maybe? There are so many characters in these books I can never remember all their names. @__@). And Margaery Tyrell. And Melisandre. And all the wildling women we've encountered. And... Yeah, I have no idea why people think the female characters in this series suck. I really don't.
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Because all female characters ever suck, unless they are exactly like how you would write them.
Seriously, GRRM has always amazed me for how well his female characters turn out in his semi-realistic fanta-historical work. He has representations of women who are traditionally feminine but strong (Catelyn) and traditionally masculine and strong (Brienne) and those who blend the traits of both (Daenerys). The message is uncompromisingly awesome: be yourself and be awesome, because there's no "ideal" womanhood - or manhood - out there.
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But really, that's exactly it. His characters are all PEOPLE. Real, believable people. They all have faults, they all have values, they all do their own thing... They're not a bunch of cardboard cut-out stereotypes. The gender roles exist, but there are plenty of characters who blatantly deviate, and their society around them, being what it is, reacts just as you'd expect. It's really rather refreshing, IMO.
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I cannot say anything on Brienne.
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The only thing the author fails on is not addressing the misogyny prevalent in that world's society. Also, the sex scenes are really not that sexy or written to please a male reader.
What would you consider a strong female character? NGL, I'm getting tired of feminists chirping the whole strong adjective around like that's the only acceptable definition that can be used for a female character.
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I am not defining a 'strong' female character by her physical strength/independence/accomplishment/power/whatever. When I say 'strong' female character, I mean the quality of writing of the said character. Regardless whether she is a meek, failure-at-life doormat or a queen who overcame all obstacles to become a turning point in the development of a civilisation, when I say 'strong', I mean how much her character resonated for me as a reader and how effectively (or even originally) the author managed to capture her depth for me to at least understand her as a person, if not relate to her.
GRRM just failed to measure up to this for me. I found the way he deals with characterisation to be average, especially when it comes to the women. In his writing, I see more character types than actual characters- most of them are obvious prototypes that have been done to death everywhere already and this is OK, because it is a fact that there are NO new stories and no new characters left for anyone to write (at least not in mainstream fiction). There are no new motives left to discover which haven't already been written by someone, so this is not the thing that decides strength or quality of plot and characterisation. The quality of characters, or 'strength' as I put it, is how the writer handles them in his own, original way.
From what I read of GRRM (and bear in mind that I am only talking about the first book here), he failed to deal with any of his motives and prototypes in a manner which would make them particularly interesting or memorable for me. I am not talking about strength and weakness in the literal sense.
These characters, while not entirely weak, are average at best. They are certainly not strong, unique or particularly well written. This is what I mean with my comment. It is entirely my fault for not making this clear and assuming everyone else was talking about that too.
I am not a feminist (as you so inaccurately put it) chirping about misogyny in a world that was supposed to be misogynistic. That is another issue altogether and on this subject I quote what another user above me said: 'The story doesn't need to be misogynistic itself to uphold misogynistic conventions. It contains a huge, glaring, complex subject, and fails to speak interestingly on that subject.' And this definitely is a problem with Game of Thrones.
Of course, this does tie in with what I was saying about the characterisation. Dealing with complex issues in a superficial manner is definitely an overall problem for the book. However, since I haven't read the whole series, I am perfectly willing to give it the benefit of the doubt that it does get better and concede that I may be missing the bigger picture here, so once again, I have to stress; my opinion applies only to Game of Thrones.
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You know, that makes sense to me, actually -- I do remember thinking that basically all of his characters (except Tyrion) felt largely archetypal to me by the end of GoT -- fun, yes, but I didn't really get all of the love from fandom. And then the rest of the series happened, and almost everyone's stories went in bizarre directions that I didn't really expect, and at this point most of the characters are fascinating and very three dimensional to me. Hopefully you'll end up feeling the same way, because I found it quite a fun ride.
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I think that's also why I/others found your original comment so off putting: Basically everyone I've talked to agrees that the series gets more complex and interesting after GoT, so it's really too early for you to make the call that ASOIAF is "NOT" how strong female characters are done. I don't know if you would/will, but going by your definition, in my mind almost if not all of his female POV characters ARE strong characters.)
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Edit: I admit that my original comment was a little rude and I do apologise. As for my definition of 'strong' characters, I suppose that we all have different expectations from our literature and GRRM just failed to measure up to my standards. But then again, my expectations may have just been a little too high when I started reading. I'd probably have enjoyed the book if I had discovered it before all the hype.
(*deleted comment to repost with edit*)
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I honestly like your definition of strong, and it's how I view female characters. I would like to point out that when I said feminists I think I probably said it in a negative way that was unintentional. I identify as a feminists, but sometimes there are some parroting as feminists on LJ that actually express views that aren't feminist like at all. I don't mean to pry, but why aren't you a feminists? If you have notions that we are all man-hating, sj-warrior types, then welp...
I can definitely see where you are coming from. Most, if not all, the characters in the first book didn't come off as really different than stereotypical characters I've read before, but I think that was due to the plot needing to move forward to conflict, and then the character's reaction to that said conflict really shows more of how much depth and thought that GRRM gave to each of them. For example, Sansa. Dear god. She was written really poorly in the first book. However, I'm really surprised of her character growth over the novels.
I do agree with the anon above about misogyny. I think it does need to be addressed. Sadly though? I don't think it will get the attention it needs. :\
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I understand why you would think that I was talking about the sex and I can totally see various LJ feminists (and I use the term loosely here) going on about misogyny and ‘how dare he’, while missing the larger point entirely. I agree with you that if the writer is going to set his story in a misogynist world, then I had damn well better see the misogyny, or what’s the point? The problem is, GRRM doesn’t deal with any of the issues he brings up on a meaningful (or at least interesting) level, because he is too busy playing with his imaginary little world in a way that doesn’t devote enough depth to any aspect of his story. Overall, I found his writing entertaining enough to read, but not remarkable. His brand of fantasy is nothing new and he has too many already-seen motives competing for the reader’s attention, without fully devoting himself to any of them. The same goes for the characterisation. The whole weak/strong I was going on about was about the quality of the writing, not the personality of the characters, but I totally see why you would have interpreted my original comment that way.
I do identify as a feminist, in the sense that I believe in equal rights and choices for everyone regardless of gender and sexual orientation. I believe in the right to have those choices respected. I believe in accountability for one’s actions and taking responsibility for your own life. I work hard for my education and independence and realise that I only have these options thanks to feminism, whose basic principles stand for everything that I believe in. What I meant to say up there is ‘I am not a feminist raging against misogyny in a fictional misogynist world’ in response to what you implied in your comment, because I was complaining about the author’s depth of characterisation, not his choice of characters. ^__^
On the subject of ‘feminists’ (on LJ and IRL) raging against men in general, women who choose to marry (take their husband’s surname/choose to stay home instead of working/make dinner/walk the dog/whatever the hell doesn’t measure up to their ‘feminist’ standards) and having children, I totally agree with you. These people forget that the basis of feminism is the right to make the choice about what kind of life you want to live without being judged and bashed for it, and sadly, they do not realise that by acting like this, they are undermining the very movement that they claim to stand for. I’ve noticed that the most aggressive ones among this group are usually the most privileged ones too, who have never actually had to fight for their rights, or make sacrifices in order to remain true to themselves. They usually don’t know what they are talking about and think that being loud and extreme somehow makes them special and cool. (Yes, I am bitter about this. =__=)
this is gonna sound condescending as fuck I'm sorry =/
Re: this is gonna sound condescending as fuck I'm sorry =/
You are totally right, I can't say that, I was rude and wasn't thinking when I typed this. Of course, my opinion stands only for the part of Game of Thrones that I've read so far (which is a little over three quarters by now) and I am certainly not competent to comment on the rest of the series.
Please bear in mind that I did not say that the book wasn't enjoyable or that I have a problem with it being patriarchal, male wish-fulfillment (and I'm not just talking about the sex here, which is just a small part of it). There is nothing wrong with this, because who says that male wish-fulfillment must be a bad thing? It is written tastefully, it is written well and it serves the purpose of reaching across to its intended audience, which obviously doesn't seem to include me.
My issue is with what constitutes as a "strong" female character and none of the women measure up so far. I feel like they fit the definition on the outside, but when you look past the shell, there is something fundamental missing. Of course, this doesn't mean that they weren't fun to read anyway, but they certainly lacked depth which could get me to relate to any of them.
I am not saying that the book wasn't an entertaining way to spend a few days, but like somebody above me already said, there is nothing in it that is worth rereading (or frankly, capable of enticing me to go on reading as far as book four), which, again, is only MY impression. I can totally understand why other people would like it a lot better than I do and I will give you the benefit of the doubt that it gets better as you keep reading.
I like the comment above mine, it explained what I intended to say much better than I am doing (obviously). As far as the female characters go, I also feel that the author is dealing with many complex issues in a very superficial way. Again, this only goes for what I've read so far (which I admit isn't enough to make a comment on the whole series).
Re: this is gonna sound condescending as fuck I'm sorry =/
Really, you don't see Arya as strong? Or the beginnings of real strength on Dany? Or what about Cat -- she makes a lot of bad decisions (it's a Stark family trait!), but she's always decisive and proactive.
I mean, maybe I'm projecting back all of the character growth I know happens with these characters, but IIRC I was impressed by all three of those ladies (even though I didn't really LIKE Cat) by the end of GoT. How do you define "strong" female characters? What do you see as missing?
--Genuinely curious (though, I also agree with the poster you were responding to that there are more awesome female characters and more awesome growth of the characters you know to come)
Re: this is gonna sound condescending as fuck I'm sorry =/
I'm sorry for not typing out a reply for you too, but it is long and exhausting and I would only be repeating myself. As for Arya and Dany, I found them very clichéd (Dany in particular). Cat wasn't as bad as these two, but she was nothing remarkable either. I was talking about the quality of writing and characterisation and I found that these characters lacked depth. I see what the author was trying to say with them (which is awesome, most of the time), but he failed to convey this to me in a way that I would feel it too, not just recognise what he wants to say. Like I said, the shell was there, but for me, the soul of these characters was lacking.
The closest I came to liking a female character in Game of Thrones was Cersei, but she is so obviously the villain of the story arc, GRRM took all the fun out of the twisted characterisation. But then again, I admit that a lot of the enjoyment I gained from Cersei stems from shallow reasons (such as a brother/sister incest kink *hides in shame*).
Re: this is gonna sound condescending as fuck I'm sorry =/
Re: this is gonna sound condescending as fuck I'm sorry =/
Like I said, I can see why so many people would like Game of Thrones, but it just doesn't seem to be my cup of tea, unfortunately! *hugs*
Re: this is gonna sound condescending as fuck I'm sorry =/
http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/704105.html?thread=447183209#t447183209
It just happened to be above mine when I was replying to it. *hides under a rock*
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This just in: All women are different. There is no right way to write a female character, and there is no wrong way. Thanks.
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Simmer down, now.