Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2011-06-20 07:36 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2011-06-20 07:36 pm
[ SECRET POST #1630 ]
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 08 pages, 187 secrets from Secret Submission Post #233.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 - take it to comments/wank elsewhere ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.
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(Anonymous) 2011-06-21 03:25 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-06-21 03:27 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-06-21 03:43 am (UTC)(link)no subject
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(Anonymous) 2011-06-21 04:08 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-06-21 04:14 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-06-21 04:17 am (UTC)(link)no subject
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I think that there are people out there who are uneducated and have a skewed view of humanity, often an egocentric, ethnocentric, "heteronormative" (re: homophobic) view. These people should have things patiently explained to them. They may be unwilling to change. Move on to tactic 1. However, if all you do is whine and bitch and rage and scream, rather than actually speaking plainly and openly and calmly and politely, they're even more likely to dig in their heels and become more resistant and prejudiced and biased.
I also think that there are people out there who like to joke. About everything. Themselves, the things they love, the things they hate, the things that don't matter to them. I personally see this as the South Park comedy method - make fun of everything equally. That's not to say they don't respect and even understand what they're making fun of. Hell, they could be making fun of themselves. You really don't know. So, especially if people are willing to communicate and even apologize for any misunderstandings or hurt caused by their words, I don't see the harm in making fun.
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(Anonymous) 2011-06-21 05:20 am (UTC)(link)no subject
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(Anonymous) 2011-06-21 05:51 am (UTC)(link)I don't think anyone's obligated to give that benefit of a doubt to a random person telling an offensive joke, and I definitely don't think the burden of educating bigoted people falls on the shoulders of their victims.
Your main goal here seems to orbit around the Be Nice Brigade which puts the focus back on the feelings of the person who was in the wrong. That's ridiculous. What if the victim doesn't WANT to ignore it? They should just suck it up, because yelling would hurt the other person's feelings? What? Why does the moral maturity of a bigot lie in the hands of their victim? Do you know how often minorities are told to be quiet because they'll make a scene, they'll make other women/blacks/jews/anything not a white male look bad?
I want you to reread the first comment you got, and really try to figure out why you defaulted on assuming that the joke wasn't worthy of being shot down, and why it was so important to you to assure that person they had nothing to apologize for (probably!!!). Was it because the poster just seemed sad and you wanted to cheer them up? Isn't it just as possible that several people were made sad by their hilarious joke? Why was your immediate thought that it was just a bunch of uppity people complaining?
But I think this will be my last time trying to explain any of this on F!S, this place has become the squatting grounds for the Be Nice Brigade and I lost the patience to calmly and sweetly explain why someone should get off my foot ages ago.
Also you don't know how to use re:.
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The sad part is, these situations are usually handled in the latter context, nowadays, because the vast majority of "Social Justice" warriors that I've had the pleasure of dealing with lately really were either people who just wanted to shout over every microscopic offense - and yes, I do mean microscopic, including an "offense" against a demographic that I am a part of - or idiots who don't listen to both sides of an argument.
And no. I didn't assume that the "they yelled at me for my joke" anon was in the right. I did say that in many cases, you should apologize. However, under certain circumstances (such as dealing with assholes), there are instances where he/she would be in the right to stand his/her ground. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was trying to imply that this situation is more common when in reality, it just took more effort and thus more wording to exemplify a time when this would be the case.
I'm sick of being bitched at and having to spend half the night defending myself for a single step into not-quite-politically-correct linguistics, because I'm really not that well-spoken and I'm actually very socially awkward. This doesn't make me a bad person, but it does lend itself to a lot of faux pas. And about 95% of the time, they're just a poorly worded thought taken out of the intended context. Surprise, I'm not perfect. But I do know it, and I am working on it. I'd be happy to apologize if people would be mature enough to tell me SIMPLY AND POLITELY that they're hurt, rather than immediately trying to make me out to be the bad guy or just outright acting like five-year-olds. If I wanted to deal with kids, I'd spend time with them.
And as per my misuse of "re:," you're probably right, I got a bit lazy re: my linguistics for a moment there. I'm sorry.
In short: No, I don't want victims to be a doormat. I want them to say that they have a problem without becoming bullies or annoying little twerps, themselves.
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(Anonymous) 2011-06-21 06:53 pm (UTC)(link)Oh why don't you go to your #1 very helpful "tactic" of ignoring them? Then everyone can be happy! Except you, the victim, but by your own advice you shouldn't speak up because then people will find you to be an annoying little twerp for defending yourself. :(
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My, but I do hate having to repeat myself in civilized debates. But I seem to have run the natural course of this line of reasoning if I'm being forced to loop back on myself.
Aside from that, it seems pretty clear that nobody in here is a troll that feeds on the attention of being yelled at. So even if we do have our heels dug in a bit and we're a bit too stubborn to find a middle ground if such a beast exists, I know that I'm at least hearing anon (whether that's you or a different anon), and I choose to believe that you/anon are hearing me, whether we agree with each other or not. And clearly, you're not the only one reading. So no, thank you, I choose to attempt a reasonable and open discussion with reasonable and open people (Yes. That's you, anon.) in hopes that whether or not I change any minds, I can at least point out where I and several others see problems with this movement.
So let's say it one more time:
- Use your words. You're not in Kindergarten anymore, you can't get what you want by crying and pointing.
- Try to remember that everyone slips up in their words now and then. Just because they misspoke doesn't make them a horrible person.
- Yelling at people without offering a reason doesn't dissuade them from their abhorrent behavior.
You do realize that in the time people spend writing up paragraphs and essays about how my motives are caused by me being brainwashed by society into seeing the white heterosexual male being lifted onto a pedestal and me being okay with this is just a function of growing up in this society (which, again, these people have no clue who I am or where I'm from, they don't know what society I'm part of) and how the plight of their own chosen minority demographic is one that has suffered for generations and hundreds of years and that because of this they are off-limits for jokes and unfair treatment, they could just as easily have said "Your wording here is offensive to me on a personal level." and most people I know who fight this SJ movement tooth and nail will honestly, sincerely apologize at that point. But if they forego a simple statement of their own feelings for one of guilt and blame and misplaced rage, then yes, we will fight back.
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(Anonymous) 2011-06-22 12:57 am (UTC)(link)Use your words. You're not in Kindergarten anymore, you can't get what you want by crying and pointing.
I don't care if yelling dissuades people if their abhorrent behavior. Sometimes, abhorrent behavior deserves being yelled at, and the victim is allowed the satisfaction of yelling, full stop. Your FOCUS being on the spiritual GROWTH of the person in the WRONG is gross. I don't care if they're a horrible member of KKK. I don't care if they've really truly misspoke. I'm not their fucking mother, I'm the person they were just harmful and offensive to, and I don't CARE to teach them a lesson and make sure it sticks. I'd never be able to care about anything ELSE ever again if I had to become the personal fucking mentor to every person who thought "CHING CHONG CHING CHONG XD" was the height of humor.
You do realize that in the time people spend writing up paragraphs and essays about how my motives are caused by me being brainwashed by society into seeing the white heterosexual male being lifted onto a pedestal and me being okay with this is just a function of growing up in this society (which, again, these people have no clue who I am or where I'm from, they don't know what society I'm part of)
And those essays? If they're not about YOU then you don't have to apply them to YOU. Do you think there's anywhere that it does apply? If yes, then the essay is valid. If you think they're wrong, either ~ignore them~ or create a discussion, but don't do it like the entire essay was a personal attack on ~you~ if they were just using the general ~you~ goddamn.
I find it really hilarious that you use this phrasing "We will fight back" - which doesn't exactly involve the polite, calm/OR IGNORING recourse you were saying should be applied to confronting ignorant, hurtful people. But "fighting back tooth and nail" is appropriate when it involves you, and someone calling you bigoted, because that is the real offense that needs to be addressed.
Also, I have been dogpiled online multiple times, and no, it wasn't pleasant. Two of the times made me flounce from two different communities, in retrospect I realize I was wrong in once case, but it was absolutely harmless in the other. So no, I don't think being "dogpiled" by SJers is pleasant, or always in the right. But the amount of BAWING I see over this is ridiculous. Absolutely fucking ridiculous. I haven't seen this much childish sobbing since working at a daycare. "THEY SAID I HAD A BOOGER BRAIN BAWW" Do you have a booger brain? No? Okay then.
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And yes, that might indeed have been a condescending tone. But again, if people are acting childishly towards me, surprise, I will treat them like a child. Revolutionary thinking, isn't it?
I can understand that racist and offensive jokes such as that are more harmful and annoying than they are EVER funny, and I'm sorry you have to put up with dumbasses being dumbasses. But I don't believe in jumping on somebody for every slight and every offense - accidents do happen, you already agreed that sometimes it's really an innocent slip. And you've also agreed that, when you're in that situation, it sucks. And I have to ask, when you're dogpiling people, do you stop to consider for a second that you MIGHT be accusing a perfectly nice and considerate person of being a privileged prejudiced smartass little punk, or do you just go at it with the blind conviction that they are, in fact, an irredeemable ethnocentric prick? And even if you don't actively engage in the dogpiling yourself, do you think those who do take the time to consider that they don't know the person they're all teaming up against?
Again, I'm not saying that things don't need to change. But if you consider yourself an activist for social justice, then it seems to me you've already taken up the burden. Even if you don't go out of your way to make sure everybody's fully informed, as I understand it, the point of "social justice" is to seek a more open-minded, less prejudiced environment. This isn't something that can be sought out with blind rage and vengeful tones. This is something that needs to be taught. Because if all you're after is yelling and bitching and making yourself feel better, that's not social justice, that's not activism, that's not helpful to the world at all. It's just more noise.
And for the record, yes, their demi-essays were directed at me and written about their interpretation of who I was based, sometimes, on a single sentence. These weren't even insults, bad jokes, hurtful names, no. These sentences have occasionally been as minor as my personal preference between two characters. Two characters, in fact, whose only differences were entirely superficial and physical. This was a personal attack on me, as a single individual. Yes, I felt the need to defend my character, because I refuse to be judged based on their preconceived notions.
Oh, did I just hit a tender spot? That wording sounds familiar... Possibly because that's what you seem to be facing, yourself, if I understand your implications. And here's the kicker: I "fought back" by explaining patiently for at least half a day how their assumptions were incorrect, baseless, insulting, irrelevant, or some combination thereof. Admittedly, as is happening here, my tone occasionally dipped into the sardonic and irritable tones of someone who is frustrated at having to repeat herself, but I started out very polite and calm, and only descended into frustration when diplomacy was once again apparently less than effective.
And no, not everybody's me. And I don't expect people to go to the lengths that I do (or beyond, like some others) to deal with every idiot that passes their way, but is it really too much to ask that people try - OCCASIONALLY - at least starting out with even a single decently polite sentence, rather than ALWAYS bombarding a completely innocent thought with full essays or name-calling or just outright yelling?
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