fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1630 ]

[ SECRET POST #1630 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1630 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 08 pages, 187 secrets from Secret Submission Post #233.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 - take it to comments/wank elsewhere ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

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Often. Basically, the whole idea behind SJ warrior-ing is to stick up for the minorities and whatnot, seek "Social Justice," call people out on being politically incorrect. The problem is, this is turning into a movement of bullying and nitpicking. There've been about 10 anti-SJ secrets in the past couple weeks... I'm all for it when it's done right, personally, but it so rarely is, nowadays. You can't just pick a fight over every single little joke, you can't encourage intellect and openness by being a narrow-minded dumbass, and you can't make the world a better, safer place through bullying and making good people feel like shit. And really, it's rather frustrating and disappointing when a good cause is taken up by bad representation.

Exactly I've had enough dogpiling for the slightest infraction. It's traumatizing! It makes me cry when I remember how so many people called me out on saying things that I thought were funny. I was only trying to make people laugh, and they wouldn't let it drop! They totally made me feel like shit for no reason!

Oh sweetheart :(

I'm sure your joke was funny. That's my biggest problem with the SJ movement. You can't censor humor, it's either all funny or none of it is.

See, that's just it. If you don't mean it in a negative way, then I don't hold it against you. If someone else is offended for a legitimate reason (legitimate reasons include "your statement is one that further emphasizes hurtful stereotypes that I face every day," but not "ohmigawd you don't even know I have like 7 gay best friends and my sister is black and actually I've never met an Indian but I'll bet that what you said would hurt their feelings don't you know anything????"), it would be nice if you're willing to apologize. If you're not, then be prepared to be blamed. If they're just there to guilt you so that they can feel better about themselves - if they're only "insulted" because it's fashionable to take every little slight personally, no matter who the supposed victim is - then really, you've nothing to apologize for.

Do you really think the majority of people who say racist or sexist jokes mean it to be negative? Most of the time they really think they're hilarious.

Yeah but even if it's the most racist joke, yelling at someone isn't going to get them to realize why they're wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right. Would you want someone yelling at you because you made an innocent mistake? No, no one would.

You sound fat.

This joke sounds old.

way to post the same joke that was old from the beginning.

I think that there are people out there who are cruel and hurtful - they SHOULD be ignored, since they feed off of the attention they get in response to these comments.

I think that there are people out there who are uneducated and have a skewed view of humanity, often an egocentric, ethnocentric, "heteronormative" (re: homophobic) view. These people should have things patiently explained to them. They may be unwilling to change. Move on to tactic 1. However, if all you do is whine and bitch and rage and scream, rather than actually speaking plainly and openly and calmly and politely, they're even more likely to dig in their heels and become more resistant and prejudiced and biased.

I also think that there are people out there who like to joke. About everything. Themselves, the things they love, the things they hate, the things that don't matter to them. I personally see this as the South Park comedy method - make fun of everything equally. That's not to say they don't respect and even understand what they're making fun of. Hell, they could be making fun of themselves. You really don't know. So, especially if people are willing to communicate and even apologize for any misunderstandings or hurt caused by their words, I don't see the harm in making fun.

Two wrongs don't make a right :)

Pretty much this. ♥

The difference between something like South Park is that they have an entire body of work available for someone to look at, the joke is within a huge multi-seasoned context. In fact, a lot of the jokes in the early seasons were more offensive than the ones in the later seasons because of the tone changes and maturing in the series, the context changed.

I don't think anyone's obligated to give that benefit of a doubt to a random person telling an offensive joke, and I definitely don't think the burden of educating bigoted people falls on the shoulders of their victims.

Your main goal here seems to orbit around the Be Nice Brigade which puts the focus back on the feelings of the person who was in the wrong. That's ridiculous. What if the victim doesn't WANT to ignore it? They should just suck it up, because yelling would hurt the other person's feelings? What? Why does the moral maturity of a bigot lie in the hands of their victim? Do you know how often minorities are told to be quiet because they'll make a scene, they'll make other women/blacks/jews/anything not a white male look bad?

I want you to reread the first comment you got, and really try to figure out why you defaulted on assuming that the joke wasn't worthy of being shot down, and why it was so important to you to assure that person they had nothing to apologize for (probably!!!). Was it because the poster just seemed sad and you wanted to cheer them up? Isn't it just as possible that several people were made sad by their hilarious joke? Why was your immediate thought that it was just a bunch of uppity people complaining?

But I think this will be my last time trying to explain any of this on F!S, this place has become the squatting grounds for the Be Nice Brigade and I lost the patience to calmly and sweetly explain why someone should get off my foot ages ago.

Also you don't know how to use re:.

How about, as I've said before (as have a lot of other people), instead of instantly responding with flaming and bitching and low-brow insults, someone could say "Look, this joke really offends me, please be more considerate with your tone/sense of humor." I know that I personally would respond to that with an "I'm sorry, I meant no offense," as opposed to a response of "LOL RACIST MUCH. YOU REEK OF PRIVILEGE," which I would counter with something equally snarky and pissy. Really, there are ways of being forthcoming and honest and firm while still being polite.

The sad part is, these situations are usually handled in the latter context, nowadays, because the vast majority of "Social Justice" warriors that I've had the pleasure of dealing with lately really were either people who just wanted to shout over every microscopic offense - and yes, I do mean microscopic, including an "offense" against a demographic that I am a part of - or idiots who don't listen to both sides of an argument.

And no. I didn't assume that the "they yelled at me for my joke" anon was in the right. I did say that in many cases, you should apologize. However, under certain circumstances (such as dealing with assholes), there are instances where he/she would be in the right to stand his/her ground. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was trying to imply that this situation is more common when in reality, it just took more effort and thus more wording to exemplify a time when this would be the case.

I'm sick of being bitched at and having to spend half the night defending myself for a single step into not-quite-politically-correct linguistics, because I'm really not that well-spoken and I'm actually very socially awkward. This doesn't make me a bad person, but it does lend itself to a lot of faux pas. And about 95% of the time, they're just a poorly worded thought taken out of the intended context. Surprise, I'm not perfect. But I do know it, and I am working on it. I'd be happy to apologize if people would be mature enough to tell me SIMPLY AND POLITELY that they're hurt, rather than immediately trying to make me out to be the bad guy or just outright acting like five-year-olds. If I wanted to deal with kids, I'd spend time with them.

And as per my misuse of "re:," you're probably right, I got a bit lazy re: my linguistics for a moment there. I'm sorry.

In short: No, I don't want victims to be a doormat. I want them to say that they have a problem without becoming bullies or annoying little twerps, themselves.

I enjoy your posts. You seem like a reasonable person.

I'm sick of being bitched at and having to spend half the night defending myself for a single step into not-quite-politically-correct linguistics

Oh why don't you go to your #1 very helpful "tactic" of ignoring them? Then everyone can be happy! Except you, the victim, but by your own advice you shouldn't speak up because then people will find you to be an annoying little twerp for defending yourself. :(

Oh, what's that? Oh lord, it seems I already said that if somebody feels upset they should speak out! Intelligently! Look at that! :D I think I did cover that option, already!

My, but I do hate having to repeat myself in civilized debates. But I seem to have run the natural course of this line of reasoning if I'm being forced to loop back on myself.

Aside from that, it seems pretty clear that nobody in here is a troll that feeds on the attention of being yelled at. So even if we do have our heels dug in a bit and we're a bit too stubborn to find a middle ground if such a beast exists, I know that I'm at least hearing anon (whether that's you or a different anon), and I choose to believe that you/anon are hearing me, whether we agree with each other or not. And clearly, you're not the only one reading. So no, thank you, I choose to attempt a reasonable and open discussion with reasonable and open people (Yes. That's you, anon.) in hopes that whether or not I change any minds, I can at least point out where I and several others see problems with this movement.

So let's say it one more time:
- Use your words. You're not in Kindergarten anymore, you can't get what you want by crying and pointing.
- Try to remember that everyone slips up in their words now and then. Just because they misspoke doesn't make them a horrible person.
- Yelling at people without offering a reason doesn't dissuade them from their abhorrent behavior.

You do realize that in the time people spend writing up paragraphs and essays about how my motives are caused by me being brainwashed by society into seeing the white heterosexual male being lifted onto a pedestal and me being okay with this is just a function of growing up in this society (which, again, these people have no clue who I am or where I'm from, they don't know what society I'm part of) and how the plight of their own chosen minority demographic is one that has suffered for generations and hundreds of years and that because of this they are off-limits for jokes and unfair treatment, they could just as easily have said "Your wording here is offensive to me on a personal level." and most people I know who fight this SJ movement tooth and nail will honestly, sincerely apologize at that point. But if they forego a simple statement of their own feelings for one of guilt and blame and misplaced rage, then yes, we will fight back.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2011-06-22 00:57 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

mondaisenshi.livejournal.com - 2011-06-22 03:33 (UTC) - Expand

You... you just said everything I've been feeling about SJ (which I've been reading a lot more about recently) so much better than I ever could. Thank you for this. I feel like I want to bake you gratitude-cookies <3

I'd give you an address to send them, but I fear getting a rock thrown through my window. ♥

you sound white

You sound fat and pockmarked.

You sound like the type to make assumptions. Feel like guessing my gender and sexuality while you're at it? How about my age and income? Ooh, please do! ♥

oh.....kay?

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