fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1671 ]

[ SECRET POST #1671 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1671 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 07 pages, 170 secrets from Secret Submission Post #239.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - hit/ship/spiration ], [ 0 - omgiknowthem ], [ 0 - take it to comments ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

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I'm not denying that it's also based off of Kimba, but Disney itself says that its plot is largely based off of Hamlet--as well as the Joseph and Moses stories in the Bible, but that's neither here nor there--and the similarities are glaring if you watch the movie and have any sort of knowledge about the play. I was probably overstating since I'm only vaguely familiar with Kimba, and I apologize for that, but saying that The Lion King isn't based off of Hamlet just because it's derived from more than one source would be as erroneous as denying that it draws from Kimba.

To be honest, the general plot of Simba and Kimba is strikingly, strikingly similar, so half of me is squinting at Disney wondering how much of what they say is true and how much is just them covering their asses for the plagiarism (though I did not know they said that themselves! Ha ha, you learn something new every day). I don't deny there's striking similarities between LK and Hamlet (did not draw the connection with Joseph and Moses, but that looks interesting and I'll to look into that later), but for me, I feel like it's more of a coincidence because of the changes made to Kimba's story than actual intention of basing off Hamlet (but that is purely my interpretation). But like I said before, I didn't know Disney themselves said that, which does makes things different.

I think I just had my nerve touched (not your fault at all; I'm just overly sensitive when it comes to things like this), because I'm sick of the Western society Westernizing stories from other cultures (like people saying Spirited Away was based off Alice in Wonderland when, if they knew anything about Japanese folklore or culture, would realise that, no, it's based off Japanese mythology with only bare similarities to AiW), so when I saw your comment (which now that I've re-read may not mean that at all, go me and reading comp) that LK was based off Kimba which was all based off Hamlet, made me jump and foam at the mouth that YES YES EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE IS ALL BASED OFF FAMOUS ENGLISH AUTHORS OF COURSE NO MATTER WHERE IN THE WORLD THE STORYTELLER IS COMING FROM. Anyways, I apologize for that!

I guess I'm just tired of people I meet (English majors mostly) who kept on saying it's based of Hamlet like they've discovered the lost city of Atlantis and when I mention that, hey you know there was a manga/anime it ripped off, I get brushed aside as just an anime liking weirdo and my comments disregarded because, no, it's far more pleasing to think that Disney based a story off Shakespeare than, well, plagiarized from a show from a culture they neither knew nor cared about.

ANYWAYS. I write too much and I'm sorry for making you read all that, and thanks for the info I didn't know about before!

I would honestly not be the least bit surprised if you're right and they only added the Hamlet elements to try and distance the movie from Kimba a little bit. It seems like the kind of thing they would do.

No need to apologize. I was trying to make a joke to lighten the mood a little bit and didn't stop to think that it could be read as a dismissal of the very real problems involving Disney's treatment of Kimba. That's my bad and I'm sorry. I can definitely see where you're coming from and you have my full agreement.

I'd take offense as a former English major, except you pretty much just described most of the English majors I currently know...Almost all of my first fandoms were anime/manga and that sort of attitude still pisses me off to no end. Whether you personally like it or not, it's a huge representation of another culture and deserves respect for that if nothing else. One of my most memorable arguments was with this guy who would go into raptures talking about how significant comic books are to American culture, but automatically dismissed anime and manga as completely worthless. Clearly if it wasn't directly relevant to him, it was crap. *facepalm*

I wish we could find out somehow how much was from Hamlet and how much form Kimba, because I think that would be quite interesting in dissecting and analyzing the Lion King, but maybe I'm just bit of a nerd like that. (I don't know if you know, but Scar's counterpart in Kimba is Kimba's aunt, who also had a scar on her face if I remember correctly, so I find breaking down things like that really cool as well as a, 'Seriously, Disney?')

No, no! You didn't mean the joke in a malicious way, and, honestly, a bit of humour in the thread (or any thread) is fine. I have to apologize for my kneejerk reaction!

Sorry for that as well! I just know a lot of English majors despite being a Biology one myself (nearly went into English if it wasn't for Asian parents), and I didn't mean any offense!

I... yeah. I took a creative writing class as an elective and the section about comics... oh boy. Oh boy. It annoys me just as much as people who are into anime and manga dismissing all cartoons and comics from countries other than Asian ones. Still remember the one time my friend brushed off my recommendation of The Sandman because it couldn't be nearly as deep as their Naruto considering a white person wrote it. *facepalm*

Claiming one storyline is based off Hamlet is not even remotely the same as claiming that everything everywhere is based on English writings. You do realise that Hamlet has been translated into Japanese for hundreds of years, right? And that there's Japanese productions of Shakespeare's plays?

Yep, I do realize, and that's why I apologized above for my kneejerk reaction because, like I've said, it's a sore spot for me (I've had many stories from my country where people - that I'm assuming are from a Western culture because they speak/wrote in English and are making the comparison - make the assumption that those stories are based off English stories when, if they knew more about my country's culture and the actual basis of the stories would realize otherwise).

I understand people are more likely to make comparisons and draw parallels to things they are more familiar with and to a Western culture, that would be Western literature (e.g. a playboy might be compared to, say, Casanova instead of Genji despite Tales of Genji also available in English for many, many years). Once again, it's just one of my nerve points, and, coupled with this thread and how most people's comments of not really caring that Disney plagiarized, I reacted more than I should have. (The, uh, ALL CAPS part was an exaggeration on what I felt, IDK if I made it clear enough, but if it wasn't, I apologize.)

Also, not to be nitpicky, but I don't think Shakespeare's works would've been available for hundreds of years considering Commodore Perry's trip wasn't until the 1850s and even then, Japan was relatively closed off to the rest of the world. (That's... just me being very nitpicky, sorry.) You're completely right, of course, and that Hamlet is available in Japan, probably commonly so, but given that the plot of Kimba bears almost no resemblance to Hamlet, I'm still going to stand by my opinion that Kimba was not based off it.

...And one of these days, I will learn how to write short, succinct replies.

I asked this of someone else, but define plagiarism as you mean it. Lifting a few element from someone else, lifting major elements from another story, copying a story, what?

I have different definitions of plagiarism if we're talking about writing vs art, so for this one, I'll give my writing definition.

As a writer myself, I understand that unique story ideas are hard to come by, coincidences happen, and inspiration comes from everywhere. So for me, if you intentionally use a large amount or more of another person's work without crediting them somehow, I consider it plagiarism. (There's also unintentional plagiarism, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.)

What Disney did was base their movie off someone else's work, and, once they found out they couldn't obtain the rights to it, instead of facing up and admitting that, look, this was inspired/based off someone else's work, pretended their source, Kimba, did not exist and refused to acknowledge it. If Disney had just straight up admitted their inspiration, I would have no issues about it. That for me is plagiarism, but I understand that my definition and others will differ.

If you don't mind me asking, what would be yours?

I use more of the copyright definition. Has this work been significantly changed (and to a lesser extent is it clear what the source material is)?

Does Lion King have elements in common with Kimba? YUP! Are those elements unique to Kimba? Eh, not so much. Lion on the rock - easy to get there from Bambi, prince of the forest on the rock; spirit of deceased in sky, seen that a million times; love interest/best friend - yawn. (The bug/vegetarian thing would be the most damning in my book as it is relatively unique.)

The problem is that 90% of the similarities seem to be found either in Hamlet or Bambi or are just generic.

The other thing is that you can rip something off/draw heavy inspiration from it without it being plagiarism. Antz and a Shark Tale came out mighty close to A Bug's Life and Finding Nemo (debatably Sinbad and Atlantis too), but while clearly not pure coincidence, they're different enough in execution that I wouldn't call it plagiarism.

There's the example I spoke of here about the similarity of Care Bears and My Little Pony, and as far as I know there's not any sort of controversy there: http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/732637.html?thread=464442333#t464442333 The fact is that those works have a ton in common, but I wouldn't say it's plagiarism, cut from the same cloth, yes, plagiarism, no.

Basically, my stance is that you can start with a kernel of an idea from somewhere else, but that doesn't mean the final product will be enough like it to be plagiarized. The way I see it, the similarities would be someone using the same phrasing a couple of times and maybe one or two similar plot points in a novel-length book. There are similarities, but the movie is different enough that it's a different beast.

Still, the idea of an eastern story being inspired by a western one isn't exactly unknown territory, nor one I think would be offensive in nature.

Because it's based out of ignorance of the source material or assuming that the culture doesn't have a myth like that or projecting your own culture on someone else's?

No it's not. I mean, it COULD be, but it's not inherently so.

So says you in your vast experience and understanding?

So...my saying that you shouldn't assume that it's always out of ignorance or projection is somehow inferior to your claim that it always must be no matter what?

No, my point was that it could be. You were acting like it never was.

I just said "I mean, it COULD be". My exact words.

Nice change in story there: "nor do I think [it] would be offensive in nature."

Are you not reading my words? I haven't changed anything. You can see my exact words right up there.

Forget it, I'm not even bothering with you if you can't even bother to read what I just wrote and accuse me of changing my "story" even though everything is there and unaltered.

And this post never existed? http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/732637.html?thread=464756189#t464756189

I was quoting you too.

Which was the thought of an eastern story being inspired by a western one, not the assumption that ALL eastern stories would be inspired by western stories. Are you HONESTLY not seeing any difference at all?

Yes, I can. However, asking a tall black man if he can run fast can still be offensive, whether or not you ask all black people if they can run fast.

...Oh wow, you're literally pulling offense out of thin air!

No this is it, I'm done. Have fun seeing offense and hypocracy in everything you view, because at least you'll keep busy.

ORLY? How?

Actually I'm pretty laid-back. As far as I can tell you think that the only possible right answer is yours. :)

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[ SECRET POST #1671 ]

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