[ SECRET POST #1771 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1771 ⌋


Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 07 pages, 157 secrets from Secret Submission Post #253.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - hit/ship/spiration ], [ 0 - omgiknowthem ], [ 0 - take it to comments ], [ 1 2 3 4 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: O_o?

[philstar22.livejournal.com]

How not to write a book is not the same thing as how not to be successful. Twilight may be successful, but it is badly written tripe not to mention portraying an abusive relationship as healthy.

Re: O_o?

[raichu100.livejournal.com]

The thing about that, though, is then you have to ask who decides that it's good. Obviously lots and lots of people do think it's good.

Re: O_o?

[ruadragon.livejournal.com]

Lots and lots of people like ridiculously self-indulgent escapist fantasy. Everyone who isn't swept up in that sort of fantasy can see that the book itself has no other merit.

Re: O_o?

[raichu100.livejournal.com]

I guess a lot of people like her brand of fantasy, then.

Also, I really like your icon =)

Re: O_o?

[ruadragon.livejournal.com]

Thanks :)

Avatar is one of those things I like to think is just objectively good :P

Re: O_o?

[velvet-mace.livejournal.com]

Well it really depends on what the purpose of the book is. The purpose of Twilight was to write a book that would give people some escapist entertainment. It succeeds very well.

Your criteria for "good book" seems awfully arbitrary.

Re: O_o?

[philstar22.livejournal.com]

My issue with Twilight has to do with what is portrayed as romantic and healthy, and the fact that both the author and the majority of teenage fans don't recognize how unhealthy the relationships in the book are (and Jacob/Bella is just as unhealthy as Edward/Bella). Abusive teenage relationships are on the rise. And the largest group of fans of the books are teenage girls. Twilight has, and will continue to have, had a negative effect.

I don't care if badly written books are published. I reserve the right to mock them, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't exist. But books like Twilight that portray the unhealthy as healthy, particularly when it comes to children and teenagers, are just bad.

Re: O_o?

[velvet-mace.livejournal.com]

My thought is, why are we only allowed to read and enjoy stories that portray healthy relationships? And where do we draw the line? I'm reading a delightful book to my 9 year old which has kids sneaking into a Museum and trying to steal a Mummy's finger. And in the end of the book they don't go to Juvie Hall for it.

It's not a relationship bible. It's consequence free fantasy.

Re: O_o?

[philstar22.livejournal.com]

There is a difference between unhealthy relationships that are portrayed exactly as they are and unhealthy relationships that are portrayed as healthy. Something like stealing, people know is wrong. With relationships, though, particularly in terms of Twilight, there are a lot of teenagers out there who think the things portrayed in Twilight are romantic and healthy. And the author agrees and says as much in interviews. Edward is a classic controlling boyfriend who does things that real life abusers do. Jacob doesn't take no for an answer, which is also something that happens in real life. And Bella has no motivation whatsoever outside of being with her man.

If the author acknowledged that what she is portraying isn't the way relationships should be in real life, I wouldn't be so bothered. But Meyers honestly believes that the stuff she writes is healthy. And that is scary.

Re: O_o?

[velvet-mace.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure that someone who was being genuinely stalked and abused would be able to tell that their relationship isn't as happy as Twilight. But fiction doesn't have to be realistic.

There are hundreds of books and resources that outline what bad relationships are and how to deal with them. People are allowed to enjoy fantasies. Even unrealistic ones. They are allowed to love their kinks, and Twilight hooks into a very common set.

Re: O_o?

[(Anonymous)]

The problem is that people who have experienced bad relationships will most likely seek out the books and resources you mentioned AFTER the bad relationship (assuming that they manage to wake up and realize that it was a bad relationship; some people get stuck in a circle of one disastrous relationship after the other and refuse to break out even when they have the nagging feeling that something isn't right).

Most of Twilight's fans are relatively young girls who likely are just starting to have more serious relationships, and they are still in at the age when they take most of their cues from their peers and the media.

Re: O_o?

[(Anonymous)]

Do you live under a fucking rock? Are you really "pretty sure" someone who is being genuinely abused would be able to tell that their relationship isn't as happy? You've obviously never been stalked and/or abused or known many people who have because honey, abuse does shitty things to people. The amount of people who stay in abusive relationships and don't think they are being abused even when their significant others are controlling them mentally, emotionally and physically to the point where their friends and family have to step in and call the cops is astounding. You are incredibly naive and delusional if you're going to paint all abuse victims like that.

Re: O_o?

[(Anonymous)]

lol are you serious.

It's not that people shouldn't be able to read and enjoy stories about unhealthy relationships. Most of the fans do not see the relationship as unhealthy when it so clearly and horrifyingly is unhealthy. Extremely unhealthy, and that isn't based on opinion, it is truth/fact. You sound like a butthurt Twihard.

Re: O_o?

[velvet-mace.livejournal.com]

That's rather insultingly pearl clutching.

I actually don't like Twilight. I thought it was boring. But I think the Twilight haters are kind of ridiculous. You guys hate the book, that's fine. But fuck you guys are dicks about it.

Re: O_o?

[stunt-muppet.livejournal.com]

Most of the fans do not see the relationship as unhealthy when it so clearly and horrifyingly is unhealthy.

Or, you know, they see it as an escapist fantasy - desirable in the fictional world where everything goes right, but not in real life.

Shockingly, many people - even young women - are in fact capable of telling the difference between reality and fantasy, and it gets my back up that there's all this pearl-clutching "won't someone think of the young girls!" business surrounding Twilight. We don't think that boys will be led astray into crime and violence based on their reading material (or we talk about it a lot less, in the case of video games); why are girls so ~delicate~ and ~impressionable~?

Re: O_o?

[ruadragon.livejournal.com]

There's nothing wrong with reading about unhealthy relationships if they're resented in a negative or neutral way. But a book about an abusive and controlling relationship, where that relationship is presented as the epitome of romance and love? That's...very wrong.

Re: O_o?

[(Anonymous)]

That is my kink.

Re: O_o?

[velvet-mace.livejournal.com]

Nice kink shaming.

Re: O_o?

[lemon-m.livejournal.com]

No, it's a bad book. It's got pacing, character, thematic, stylistic and grammatical problems that anyone who cares can easily spot. That the majority of people don't care is another thing, and that's their deal. Whether it sends a bad message, or if it's escapist fantasy is something that can be argued endlessly-- but in its technical side, it's a bad book.

Re: O_o?

[velvet-mace.livejournal.com]

Surprisingly, nearly all of those things are entirely subjective and a matter of taste.

Pacing, characters, themes, style -- taste, taste, taste. And obviously Twilight to a lot of peoples taste (not mine, but I'm okay with that). I refuse to see someone else's tastes in escapist fantasy fiction as being somehow inherently better than my own. And I don't insist that my tastes be the gold standard for anyone else.

You got Twilight on bad grammar, but that's the only thing that's truly non-subjective. And you know what? Grammar is not that important as a criteria.

Re: O_o?

[lemon-m.livejournal.com]

I fail to see how a meandering plot, informed attributes, continuity errors and repetition of information (pacing, character and style problems) are good. And they are there in those books. Plenty of authors that actually care about their craft would be happy to point them out, and in the end, I care more about their opinion than casual readers, sorry if that bothers them. And yet, I don't think that my dislike of the book or its glaring flaws lessens the enjoyment of those who care about it. They like it, they like it. But just because they do doesn't make the book good. And just because it is bad doesn't mean they can't enjoy it.

The thing would be, if anyone comes to me claiming to know about writing and tells me Twilight is a well-written book, I won't take them seriously.

Re: O_o?

[ruadragon.livejournal.com]

This and the post below it = win.

Re: O_o?

[(Anonymous)]

Pacing can be objectively measured. If the plot hasn't been introduced by the first third of the book, it's considered to be badly formed as a story arc by novel standards. The denouement should also not overshadow the climax.

Themes and style should be consistent, or they should have a reasoning behind the switch. For example "A Visit from the Goon Squad" switches POV, tense, etc. in each vignette for a reason tied to the plot. Stephenie Meyer switches out between past and present because she doesn't know the difference in its appropriateness.

You can't introduce a logical system in the world and change it later and without reason to suit your needs. You can't introduce plot points relevant to the story and then forget them. The measures of success in these things is very subjective, but her failure to tie up plot points presented in the novel are not indicative of a good story.

Twilight is a successful book, but Meyers is absolutely wrong when she says it surpasses Shakespeare, Bronte, Austen, and other famous classics that knew when to adhere to the writing conventions and when to break them. And I agree there's a lot of leeway and nobody should be shamed for liking the book. I'm speaking as someone who loves escapist fantasy fiction, and I think some of them are really amazing writers. But I'm going to hold up their writing to the same conventions and criticisms when measuring the worthiness of their skill.

Also I wholly disagree with you on grammar not being important. It's like building a fort and using spit for your mortar. Sure, your bricks may be nice and the overall design may be beautiful, but it won't hold together as it should. When she mistakes "vampire canon" for "vampire cannon" there is an important and hilarious difference in that one letter.

Re: O_o?

[cherryfission.livejournal.com]

...Wait.

Meyer said that Twilight surpasses Shakespeare?

My God, I don't have an icon appropriate for my amusement/befuddlement/irritation. SO MANY FEELINGS.

Re: O_o?

[(Anonymous)]

The purpose of Twilight was to write a book that would give people some escapist entertainment.

Obviously you haven't read any of the writer's interviews. She thinks she's a literary genius.