fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1851 ]

[ SECRET POST #1851 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1851 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02.

[Coronation Street]

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03.

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05.

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06.

[The Fly]

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07.

[Black Lagoon]

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09.

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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

10. [SPOILERS for Catherine]

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11. [SPOILERS for the Vampire Diaries]

[Vampire Diaries and Kyle XY]

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12. [SPOILERS for Huntress Mini]

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13. [SPOILERS for Mawaru Penguindrum]

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14. [SPOILERS for Sherlock]

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15. [SPOILERS for Sherlock]

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16. [SPOILERS for Sherlock]

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17. [SPOILERS for Sherlock]

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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

18. [TRIGGER WARNING for gore/death]
[SPOILERS for Sherlock]

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19. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]
[SPOILERS for Kannazuki No Miko]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #264.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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TLDR: "Being a rape apologist is okay if you try and get intellectual about it!"

No shit. What the actual fuck is wrong with these people? Is it something in the water?

In what way is it "rape apologism" to acknowledge simply that people who enjoy a work that includes acts of rape might do so for reasons other than thinking rape in real life is acceptable? Is every person who saw and enjoyed The Talented Mr. Ripley a "murder apologist"? Is every person who doesn't automatically condemn anyone who enjoyed that movie a "murder apologist"? If not, why do you classify murder as less severe than rape, such that fictional murder is okay to enjoy but anyone who fails to revile fictional rape must be branded as evil?

I'd rather "try and get intellectual" about such questions rather than just assume that I must be on the right side of things because I feel so righteously angry -- even as I boast that I Didn't Read the point of view I'm claiming to have refuted. Obviously, your mileage may vary.

-- woodsman

Because ignoring the rape and finding the relationship romantic and perfect and desirable anyway is implying that rape is totally okay (or at the very least "not that bad") as long as it's done with "good" intentions. That's distilled rape apology right there.

Though if you're as male as your sig name implies, it's no fucking wonder you're this much of a dipshit.

Did you really intend all the implications of your last sentence? That the more "male" one is, the more one is automatically a dipshit?

As for your first paragraph, you are never going to be correctly describing the point of view I've been arguing until you start distinguishing between "rape in fiction" and "rape in reality." Until you grasp and deal with that distinction, you're not arguing against me, but against a straw man.

-- woodsman

You bet I was, as to the subject of rape in general. Men are privileged idiots with regard to that topic, and really need to shut the fuck up about it and listen instead of mansplaining.

And no, wrong again. I'm arguing against Wolfie's point about that specific relationship being considered pure and loving and desitable even though it involves rape, and justifying that rape because it was done "out if love." You're the one building the strawman about accepting rape in a work in general. So yes, you're still the douchebag, here.

Because underneath all your pseudo-intellectualism, you're trying to obscure the fact that what wolfie said wasn't at all about the anime being ok despite having rape in it. She was talking about how the main character raping her love interest could still be construed as romantic because she did it out of some sort of overarching love. TLDR also means "Here's a recap for the rest of you because the previous bit was too long and not really worth going into."

Yes, exactly. Wolfie's original comment wasn't directed at the work as a whole, but specifically at Chikane and Himeko's rape-tastic "romance."

Let's not forget the context in which wolfie made her original comment, however: she was answering the question of "why do so many people consider KnM THE quintessential yuri anime?" And immediately people jumped on her as if she had said "This is why I think KnM is the best yuri anime of all time and so hawt, exdee exdee," even after her original comment was reposted again so that everyone could see that she had said no such thing. Even the OP, who clearly hates KnM, acknowledged that a significant number of people do regard it as having that special place in the genre.

Okay, so we have a fact that we may find repugnant, but it remains a fact nonetheless: the fact that many people feel this way about KnM. Assuming we rule out the most primitive and irrational reactions, namely "rabid denial of the unpleasant fact" and "shooting the messenger" (not that everyone in this thread has ruled out those reactions, of course) then how do we meet the OP's challenge? How do we explain why, how people like KnM?

The easiest out, as it always is, is demonizing those who don't think like us. "Anyone who likes KnM must be a douchebag monster! Write them all off as evil and we're done! Case closed!" Simple, easy, and quite clearly there are many people who are quite happy to make that their analysis and be done. But the simplest way out is not always the best or most realistic. Maybe we need to work harder to find an answer.

Less simplistic is the hypothesis "There are many people who like KnM and are not douchebag monsters; however, all of them are deeply repulsed by the rape in it and they simply like everything else in the series enough that it makes up for how much they hate the rape." This is somewhat more realistic than the "every KnM fan is a douchebag monster" hypothesis... but it's still another incarnation of the "everyone who is good thinks like me, and everyone who doesn't think like me is bad" assumption. Maybe we need to keep looking and find a hypothesis that doesn't rest on such an assumption.

That leads to the hypothesis "Not everyone reads KnM in the same way. Even though people are rightfully repulsed by real-life murder, they can be found enjoying stories of fictional murder, even sometimes applauding the fictional murderers, in numbers too large to be explained by the hypothesis 'they're all douchebag monsters who think murder is all right.' People can condemn real-life vigilantes but applaud a fictional character who they know will get revenge on the 'right' people who really deserve all they get. Perhaps in a similar manner, some people can read of an act that they would never condone in a real relationship and interpret it differently in a fictional relationship. They don't believe that 'okay rapes' are real; they're simply capable of suspending their disbelief in such a thing when it's presented to them in a context they know to be fiction."

Obviously, there are people who will hate this hypothesis, and will insist that "everyone who doesn't hate KnM and everyone who doesn't hate everybody that doesn't hate KnM is a monster and we should hate 'em!!" is the truly rational assessment of the situation. *shrug* Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but I'm also entitled not to be impressed when someone who hasn't even actually shown an understanding of a presented hypothesis claims to have utterly rebutted it.

The way she phrased it, though, by opening with "you do realize that that Chikane raped her because of a deep-seated neverending love, right?" made it sound as if she thought you'd have to be stupid not to look past the rape and see how wonderful their relationship is otherwise. And that's what people are (rightfully) taking issue with, because it's an age-old 'justification' that gets trotted out with alarming frequency in completely non-fictional rape cases.

I can completely agree with you that that portion of wolfie's phrasing was very bad, and made it sound like everyone should have realized how the rape could be interpreted as a romantic act of love.

I must disagree with you that that's what people are taking issue with, however. They would be quite justified in being offended at wolfie saying "You have to interpret it my way, as an expression of how deeply Chikane cares, or else you're stupid!!" But whether or not that's what wolfie actually intended to say (I doubt that it was) what people have been very clearly saying in her direction is "You have to interpret it my way, as an act of pure evil, or else you're evil!!"

So far you're the only one who has addressed at all one of the key issues I've been trying to point out, which is... it's fiction. Why should it be mandatory to regard a fictional rape in exactly the same light as a rape in real life, when we can very easily think of half a dozen things, some even more serious than rape, which we are willing to accept in fictional contexts very differently from how we'd accept them in real life? You allude to the answer that people might be unwilling to accept this particular interpretation of the fictional KnM rape because it's too close to a twisted train of thought that has been used to try and justify real-world rape, and I can certainly identify with that - earlier I mentioned "vigilante justice" as one of the things people frequently accept in their fiction even if they wouldn't in reality; I didn't mention how personally repulsive I find it even in fiction, because of some of the horrible things I've seen people do and read of others doing, thinking they were actually doing good by being brutal and vindictive and violent to people who "deserved it" ... some of whom turned out not to be guilty of the things they were accused of.

But the thing is, should I dismiss everyone who loves a good "guy gets revenge when the law won't act" movie as a horrible monster? As someone who would themselves go out torturing and killing if they thought they were getting righteous vengeance? I don't think that's very realistic. Perhaps some of them would, but I think more of them simply say "It's fiction. Because it's fiction, we know it really is justified revenge against someone who really can't be dealt with any other way; that's clearly what the screenwriter decided, so I'll just accept that it's so and feel good with no qualms when that righteous vengeance is achieved on the screen." I don't insist that everyone has to think like me on this issue or else be a monster. Why are so many people so insistent that on this issue, everyone really does have to have the same interpretation or be evil?

-- woodsman

Wow. Because obviously you know what I'm taking issue with better than I do. You're psychic and shit, right?

But whether or not that's what wolfie actually intended to say (I doubt that it was) what people have been very clearly saying in her direction is "You have to interpret it my way, as an act of pure evil, or else you're evil!!"

BECAUSE HOW THE FUCK ELSE COULD YOU INTERPRET FUCKING RAPE AND NOT BE A COMPLETE SHITBAG?

Silly me, forgot who I'm talking to...

So first you act like I'm horrible for presuming to say what you're taking issue with.

Then you turn around and confirm that I was in fact completely correct about what I said you were taking issue with.

If you showed any propensity to understand and discuss distinctions such as "things in real life" vs. "things in fiction," or "taking issue with being told you should see things a certain way" vs. "taking issue with being told that someone doesn't see things your way," I would be interested in continuing this discussion with you - despite your unwillingness or inability to adhere to basic rules of civilized debate, such as there really being no need to scream. As it is, however, I wonder if you would at least be considerate enough to adopt a moniker for this discussion, so I know which posts are pointless to reply to.

Translation: "BAAAAAAAWWWWWW! WHY DOES NO ONE AGREE WITH MY RAPE APOLOGY!?"

So, do you want to get all ~philosophical~ as to why my uncle raped me? And explain how I clearly simply haven't forgiven him because I don't understand it?

After all, it's ~easier~ for me to demonize him as a douchebag monster.

Educate me, oh wise man.

Please see my second paragraph here (http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/830593.html?thread=518824833#t518824833).

-- woodsman

Translation: "I don't have an argument that doesn't make me sound like a rape apologist douchebag."

Rape isn't fiction to me. I don't have that particular privilege, thank you very much. Until you acknowledge that it is a REAL HURTFUL THING, then you'll be arguing out your asshole.

I'm not trying to correctly describe your argument.

That's your job. You chose to defend the rape apologist, you get the burden of explaining why that's okay.

+1000

Awesome comment is awesome, and you should feel awesome for making it.

Well, then, should I angrily demand of you why you want to castrate without trial every single person accused of rape? That would be entirely fair of me to do, according to the standards you've chosen: if you get to demand that I defend an argument that is not mine and does not derive logically from anything I've said, surely I should get the same privilege to assign you a viewpoint you don't hold and coerce you to defend it.

-- woodsman

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-02-01 02:55 (UTC) - Expand

Fuck it all, i have read this thread completely till now and can't believe what i'm reading here. Nobody here said real rape was ok, nobody! This is about a piece of fiction which is apparantly quite unrealistic, as rape is clearly not love. "Wolfie" wrote as an answer why she believes some people like it. Point. Everyone dogpiled her. Now you are accusing people of beeing ok with real rape over a piece of fiction and the understanding why some people like this FICTION! Call me rude all youz want, but you clearly need a lot of therapy if you can't difference between fiction and reality.

Yes, i know,i know, I'm an asshole and after this thread,i don't give a fuck , so stupid are some of you.

Yes, you are an asshole who apparently reads about as well as you type if that's what you thought Wolfie's comment was. Which is to say rather shittily. lrn2english, please.

No, actually, AYRT is the one who understood wolfie's comment correctly. No matter how much you throw around the label "rape apology," no matter how many ALL CAPS you use or how many times you call people douchebags and shitbags, the fact remains that no one in this thread has been justifying rape in the real world. What wolfie was talking about was accepting rape in fiction.

It would be possible to put together a cogent argument about the relationship between what people see of rape in fiction and how it leads them to regard rape in the real world that leads to the conclusion "therefore we should not be accepting of rape in fiction" - but only one post so far has even come close to doing that. Most of the posts so far simply refuse to accept that there is any difference between rape in fiction and rape in the real world.

Sorry, folks, but throwing tantrums does not change reality for you. And it doesn't even change people's minds. This is why I (speaking as a child sexual abuse survivor) really detest the victim-deifying mentality still so prevalent in survivor culture: survivors are given tacit or sometimes explicit permission to behave in ways that would never be considered acceptable in any other civilized adult. They're encouraged to stoke their hatred towards their abusers, fan those flames higher and harder, encouraged to "let their anger out" primarily at their abusers but also at anyone who "compounds the abuse" by daring to even unwittingly do something the poor saintly survivor finds more difficult to deal with because of their past - in short, they are steered away from acting like mature, healthy adults who have overcome their past and towards behaving like dangerous psychos with no impulse control that it's not safe to be around.

Want what you say about sexual abuse to be listened to, and taken seriously? Here's a really good first step: look like a sane, mature adult who can discuss the subject reasonably. Respond to the argument the other person actually made, not a straw man argument that sorta sounds like what the other person said. Stooping to vituperative personal abuse? Bad idea.

And yes, I know very well that each time you do behave badly - viciously verbally assaulting someone for saying words of support for rape and abuse they never said, screaming at them for daring to question The Word of a Survivor - you get lots of applause for doing so. You know what that's called? Preaching to the choir. Outside the echo chamber that gives you all that approval for flying into fits of righteous rage, people look at the way you're behaving and they say to themselves "are all rape and sex-abuse survivors walking time bombs just waiting to lash out? can any of them discuss things without going psycho?"

What was done to you as a child was bad enough. Letting it keep you from joining the real world as a mature adult - now that is compounding the damage.

-- woodsman

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-02-01 02:58 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-02-01 03:49 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-02-01 06:02 (UTC) - Expand

Congratulations on your brilliant insight. Want a fucking medal? Yeah, I can't believe what I'm reading here, either: a shitton of rape apology, so long as it's done "for true love."

No shit I fucking need therapy. I was fucking RAPED BY MY UNCLE AS A CHILD. And people are playing it off as ~romantic~ and ~I just don't understand it~ if I don't agree.

Go light yourself on fire and jump off a cliff, you fucking shitstain.

Fucking THANK YOU.

I really do hope you get the help you need. And I mean that sincerely. Because what happened to you was awful and you deserve to recover from it without assholes like these defending such vile actions.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-02-02 11:12 (UTC) - Expand

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