fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1891 ]

[ SECRET POST #1891 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1891 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 81 secrets from Secret Submission Post #270.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 4 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

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06. http://i43.tinypic.com/a19y1.jpg

Wishing suicide on anyone is a terrible thought. I don't even like that show ~~and I totally despise the way the writers handled that character~~, but come on.

As someone who was bullied all throughout high school to the doing where I myself was suicidal, I have little sympathy for Karofsky.

If my bullies had all hung themselves one day, I would have been happier because then I wouldn't be scared of going to school and being beaten up, harassed or had slurs thrown at me. Meanwhile they all seem to be living their lives normally and graduating college now, and I'm still struggling with the aftereffects of daily abuse. I can't even go to college because I'm too terrified of social settings now.

Fuck bullies, man. I have no sympathy for any of them.

As someone who was bullied all throughout elementary school, middle school, high school, and into college, I would never wish death upon anyone. I would never wish the misery of being suicidal on anyone.

Yeah, it sucks to be bullied and it has far reaching effects in life. Yeah, most bullies don't even remember being a bully or the events that are burned into your own brain. Most go on to be normal adults with normal lives. And that sucks, but I still wouldn't wish death upon them.

NAYRT, but well goody for you!

Congratulations?

I'll never understand this whole "Bullies are people too! How dare a victim say anything mean about them!" attitude people have. I have far more sympathy for victims than I do for bullies, and while wishing death on someone is harsh, it also isn't uncommon. Humans are irrational, and as much as we don't like to think it, sometimes we say (and wish for) awful things. So if a single person is making one's life miserable, I wouldn't blame the victim for wanting the bully to fall off the face of the earth. If it makes life easier, if only for a single day, I don't blame them for wanting something bad to happen to their bully.

I'd also say being bullied is far worse than just something that "sucks". Talk about an understatement.

I didn't say you couldn't say mean things about them, I just said I wouldn't ever wish death on anyone. There is a HUGE difference. And while I agree that i can be a natural emotional jump to wishing death upon those who hurt you, I disagree that it's ever a good thought. But people have different philosophies on life, so I imagine this is one topic we will never agree on.

Ok, so bullying doesn't suck? Should I have added more adjectives? Gone into how it's a fiery miasma of pain and suffering that one can never get over and creates a black hole of sadness within ones heart? Would that have been better? Sucks is an appropriate term, and for me encapsulates all the misery and badness that bullying results in. It's a nice easy satisfying word.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-03-09 18:43 (UTC) - Expand

You forget that at the point Karofsky did this, he has already given up bullying and is genuinely sorry for what he's done, the way you say it makes it sound like he's still the asshole he was in season 1 and part of season 2. I understand the sentiment towards bullies who have never been sorry for what they've done and harass people relentlessly, but that is not Karofsky, so justifying your lack of sympathy towards him because of people like them simply does not make logical sense (which, considering this is more of an emotional subject, is slightly acceptable, I think you just ought to keep that in mind.)

And everyone's bullying experience is different, as a result of my being bullied I just became extremely apathetic and occasionally snarky towards assholes because I learned it wasn't worth my time to worry about what shitheads think of me. I think wishing death on someone is kinda dumb, unless said person has the power to hurt a lot of people (like hitler or various dictators and war criminals) part of it is, if they're dead you never get the chance to spite them, and they can't suffer if they're dead.

The biggest problem with the above is that David had stopped bullying, made a turn around and was working at becoming a better person. He had apologized more than once and had made peace with Kurt.

When this happened to him, HE WASN'T A BULLY ANYMORE.

I can understand your feelings, but while I think we need to look harder at the people bullying and figure out why they do it and believe that the victims and their safety are the more imminent concern, bullies are still human beings. I hate how people forget that.

Yeah, going to be the judgmental bitch here, but have you thought about getting some closure?

There are so many reasons I'm happy to avoid Glee fandom, the reactions to this episode being one. And I completely agree that the show did a horrible job and shouldn't have even tried.

I understand your point, OP. Believe me, I do. It's just the way it was presented in the episode, and the reactions from his fans, made it seem like suddenly it was all okay, everything he is and everything he represents. Somehow it was all justified then. A lot of people were saying how you just had to like him now. And you know, I disagree with that wholeheartedly. I don't wish suicide on anyone, but I don't suddenly like Karofsky. I still dislike him as strongly as I did before. Maybe even more, because of the shitty way it was all handled: "like this character, look he's in pain!". Um, no.

Also, one of the things that bothered me most was how, after imagining a happy life, he felt better and hopeful and shit. What? Have any of the writers ever had suicidal thoughts? "Imagining a happy life" is not the ~cure, it's not even possible when you feel that way.

The whole episode was just garbage.

So I guess people who USED to bully others are somehow exempt from sympathy? That they are unworthy of forgiveness, even if they have apologized and have worked to better themselves? That their pain is meaningless because they've made mistakes, regardless of whether or not they have made amends?

Also, what does he represent exactly? Cause to me he represents someone who was angry and bitter and lashed out at someone innocent, and did some utterly lousy things. And then turned it around, apologized, tried to make up for his horrible behaviour, and worked toward being a better person. Someone who tried to deal with the pain and issues that made him act badly and tried to move forward with his life.

I'd say he represents the ability to grow, change and mature. He represents acceptance, redemption and forgiveness. He represents the human struggle.

On My Way did NOT 'suddenly' make everything he had done 'all okay'. His actions from Born This Way onwards are what made it okay.

I hate how so many people simply forget everything he did, and everything that occurred between him and Kurt, from Furt to On My Way. There was TONS of characterisation between those episodes. Maybe you, and many others, should re-watch that.

I don't think people forget anon. I remember practically everything Karofsky's done and while I wouldn't wish him dead or suicidal, I still think he's a pretty selfish character (not that I think suicide is selfish).

You're ignoring the fact people can interpret characters differently. Frankly, while I did feel sorry for him that he was bullied by Finn (Vitamin D), the fact that he was so quick to get revenge, and then went on unprovoked against Kurt, made it worse, imo. He knew what bullying felt like, and still found that an appropriate way to express his turmoil. I've found all of his actions motivated from the beginning from fear for himself, and not sympathy for Kurt. And frankly, I find apologies without understanding pretty worthless myself. The only time I felt like he apologized and had a clue was in the hospital scene. And I don't think he worked to better himself. He was forced into the bullywhips, he went to another school, where he made it clear his only motivation was survival, so it's pretty doubtful he was defending anyone from the bullies at his school. It's far more likely he stood and watched, which is his prerogative, and he's by far not the only person guilty of that, but let's not pretend it made him a far better person. When he pursued Kurt, he did so without any consideration to what Kurt wanted. It was all about him and his validation. This is a character who start to finish has been motivated by fear, which I personally dislike in people when it goes to the extant that they're willing to hurt other people to protect themselves, and nothing he's done has suggested that he's tried to get over that.

I could accept that now he might be willing to change, but it's valid for me to say that he hadn't changed so much as went into hiding before. Yours isn't the only way to look at him.

Edited 2012-03-08 03:15 (UTC)

Your PS is how I feel about any remotely delicate topic Glee decides to cover

Almost a nitpick, but I get tired of people saying this: Glee should not have handled *insert topic here* they handled it terribly!!

The fact is the way they handle these issues has been helpful to people, AND also raised awareness in others. And there are plenty of people who feel they are represented in Glee. I'm glad to see Glee approaching these topics. Just because it wasn't approached the exact precise way you wanted it to be, due to experience or not, doesn't mean they did it terribly and should keep quiet about it.

Ugh.

This.

This, also. I don't know, I'm gay and while I never had this extent of bullying, hearing Karofsky talk about how his best friend abandoned him and his mother thought he was diseased affected me. I have problems with the way some things are depicted, sure, but I think the level of hate this show gets is kind of ridiculous. It's silly sometimes and at others, downright offensive, some characters are underrepresented or played to the hilt as a stereotype, but it's not always this way and there's nothing wrong with portraying issues that are relevant in today's world. You obviously have a right to disagree, but if you hate it so damn much then why waste the time watching it?

I totally agree with the bottom part of the secret. Well, actually, I would probably agree with all of it but aside from AfterElton's recaps I avoid the Glee fandom with a passion. I felt so much awkwardness and second-hand embarrassment from that episode. Aside from the scene where Kurofsky's dad finds him, which I did find truly moving, the whole thing was a giant trainwreck from beginning to end. And that's coming from a lesbian, who has been suicidal (for other reasons), and whose gay male best friend seriously considered ending his life in high school. People need to realize "it gets better" is totally a fucking inadequate response.

What would you propose as a response then?

See above comment.

I found the "It Gets Better" campaign to be pretty helpful...when it came GLBT folk. But when a whole host of straight, usually white, usually male celebrities jumped on the bandwagon and started proclaiming that "life is going to get so much better for you!" I seriously wanted to be all "how the fuck would you know?"

This describes my feelings perfectly.

If you found "It Gets Better" helpful, that's great! I am sincerely happy for you. And I am happy that it exists because I do know it helps some people, and I feel like if it helps just one person then it's a worth while campaign. However, as someone who grew up in poverty and saw alot of violence growing up, the realistic thing is it just honestly doesn't get better for many LGBT teens. It got better for ME, but for every me there is a 100 who isn't so lucky. I feel like alot of people just made "it gets better" videos without looking into 1) actually stopping bullying in schools 2) the economic infrastructure of communities and 3) provided more legislative protection. Also, for people with clinical depression (LGBT or not) , telling them "it gets better" is just not going to be enough. Legitimate psychological help- help outside of many teens' reach for familial, economic, and other reasons- is the best option. While some "It Gets Better" supporters make genuine contributions towards these material goals, for many, it serves as a "feel good activism" where they can showcase their goodwill towards LGBT teen without actually doing anything productive. But then again, that seems to be the trend in mainstream American "activism" these days. And I'm saying this as a part-time activist, not someone who is at all cynical about social change.

Like I said though, I am genuinely happy for you that you were able to get something positive out of the campaign.

Oh, Glee. Just when I think it's recovering from being terrible, it turns around and does something gross like this. And they're tempting me with Jeff Goldblum, too. >:[

But yeah, as for the Karofsky thing, sometimes being a bully and being a victim go hand in hand. I think fandom likes the idea of being social justice warriors and victim advocates, but that all goes out the window when a show actually portrays victimhood as the ugly, complicated thing it is. They're so used to their woobies being vulnerable and endearing, or at least charming sociopaths, that they don't know how to feel when one breaks out of the mold and is just plain sad n' messed-up.

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